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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
candle2
Member
Posts: 63
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 796 of 858 (849015)
02-21-2019 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 794 by DrJones*
02-20-2019 4:49 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
You do believe in fairy tales.
You believe that over hundreds of millions of years a frog really turned into a princess.

Do you have a photograph of a chimpanzee-monkey looking creature hanging on your wall?
Do you tell everyone that this is a photograph of your long dead forefather?

Do you stare at this photo and smile when you realize that he is who you inherited your intelligence from?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 794 by DrJones*, posted 02-20-2019 4:49 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

    
candle2
Member
Posts: 63
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 797 of 858 (849016)
02-21-2019 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 793 by ringo
02-20-2019 3:18 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Lot sat in the gates of Sodom, which means that he gave advice. However, he was seen as a hypocrite. He wanted to be accepted by his adopted city, but he also wanted to protect the hospitality of his home

He was wrong (I believe) to offer his daughters, but I don't think that Lot was a very righteous man. If he had not been Abraham's nephew God might have allowed him to perish with Sodom and her sister cities.

Lot allowed himself to get drunk twice, and in both instances his daughters had sex with him. And please note: because the Bible describes something doesn't mean that the Bible prescribes, or endorse said behavior.

In any event, the sisters were the progenitors of the modern country of Jordan. Perhaps, this is why God spared them.

The men of Sodom rejected the girls. They wanted the men.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 793 by ringo, posted 02-20-2019 3:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 799 by ringo, posted 02-21-2019 10:44 AM candle2 has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 798 of 858 (849018)
02-21-2019 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 794 by DrJones*
02-20-2019 4:49 PM


Bronze Age "Goat Herders"
I saw your comment and was reminded of this article: Too Simple to Be Wrong: Atheism’s Bronze-Age Goat Herder Conceit

Notable Quote:

quote:
he conceit probably originated with Kant but has since fallen far. Its contemporary expression might go like this: Way back a long time ago we weren’t so hot at science. We were babies then, so in the face of an unpredictable world we clung to our religion like mama’s skirt. Now we’re growing up and must put away childish things: all religion must go.

My own rather strong religious impulses, for example, are relics of the bad old days and must be dropped. How? Apparently I must learn some science. Once I do that I’ll be all grown up and I’ll be able to relax and stop worrying, man, and enjoy my life.

Zooming out: We are at a critical point in history, and the sooner we slough off the old religious crap the sooner we’ll be able to get on with the business of saving ourselves. Because “God” is clearly not going to do it.


ringo always tells me that God is not going to "do it".

But where is the evidence that says that most of the wisdom of the Psalms and Proverbs is outdated for modern day application?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 794 by DrJones*, posted 02-20-2019 4:49 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 800 by ringo, posted 02-21-2019 10:47 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 799 of 858 (849022)
02-21-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 797 by candle2
02-21-2019 7:21 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
candle2 writes:

The men of Sodom rejected the girls. They wanted the men.


Well, it doesn't exactly say that - but in any case, it misses the point. If Lot knew the people of Sodom well enough to give them advice, why would he offer them women? If he thought the men of Sodom wanted men, per se, why wouldn't he offer himself, for example?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 797 by candle2, posted 02-21-2019 7:21 AM candle2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 801 by candle2, posted 02-22-2019 6:24 AM ringo has responded
 Message 804 by Phat, posted 02-23-2019 1:14 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 800 of 858 (849023)
02-21-2019 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 798 by Phat
02-21-2019 9:35 AM


Re: Bronze Age "Goat Herders"
Phat writes:

ringo always tells me that God is not going to "do it".

But where is the evidence that says that most of the wisdom of the Psalms and Proverbs is outdated for modern day application?


You are the evidence that God is not going to do it.

As for Psalms and Proverbs, I have never said that there is no wisdom there.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 798 by Phat, posted 02-21-2019 9:35 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 63
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 801 of 858 (849040)
02-22-2019 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 799 by ringo
02-21-2019 10:44 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Lot was an old man. Understand this: the men of Sodom wanted the two men (angels). Philosophy won't change this factt.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by ringo, posted 02-21-2019 10:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 802 by ringo, posted 02-22-2019 10:41 AM candle2 has not yet responded
 Message 803 by Theodoric, posted 02-22-2019 11:22 AM candle2 has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 802 of 858 (849045)
02-22-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 801 by candle2
02-22-2019 6:24 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
candle2 writes:

Lot was an old man. Understand this: the men of Sodom wanted the two men (angels). Philosophy won't change this factt.


It has nothing to do with philosophy; it's about what the text says. If Lot thought the men of Sodom were homosexuals, why would he offer them women?

Are you suggesting that Lot was too senile to know the difference?

Yes, the men of Sodom wanted the angels. The reason why they wanted them is not as simplistic as you claim.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 801 by candle2, posted 02-22-2019 6:24 AM candle2 has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 803 of 858 (849047)
02-22-2019 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 801 by candle2
02-22-2019 6:24 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
He was 205 years old when he died. (Genesis 11:32) That pretty much proves that it is just a fable.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 801 by candle2, posted 02-22-2019 6:24 AM candle2 has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 804 of 858 (849071)
02-23-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 799 by ringo
02-21-2019 10:44 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Lot would never offer himself as that likely went against his own personal feelings. Granted, I see evidence on the internet of Christians acting like jerks. To wit:

It seems that many Christians are insecure of their own beliefs and feel a need to bully out competing views. I myself would likely be accused of compromising my own faith in pointing this out---but I need to be honest.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by ringo, posted 02-21-2019 10:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 805 by ringo, posted 02-23-2019 3:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 805 of 858 (849076)
02-23-2019 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 804 by Phat
02-23-2019 1:14 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat writes:

Lot would never offer himself as that likely went against his own personal feelings.


And offering his daughters wouldn't go against his own personal feelings?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by Phat, posted 02-23-2019 1:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 806 by AZPaul3, posted 02-23-2019 5:03 PM ringo has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3810
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 806 of 858 (849078)
02-23-2019 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 805 by ringo
02-23-2019 3:50 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
And offering his daughters wouldn't go against his own personal feelings?

No. Not at all. Lot had so many daughters he understood their motivations and desires. Both daughters would have done as Lot commanded them, especially Paltith, who was quite eager to get out there and get going. But, alas, the two hardcore alt-right angels, the republicans of their era, shut the whole thing down, kicked Lot and family out of town then called in an air strike and leveled the joint.

It's ok, though. Paltith got what she wanted when the old man tied one on one night and passed out on the floor which makes me somewhat jealous since whenever I've been that lit I couldn't stand at full salute to save my life.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 805 by ringo, posted 02-23-2019 3:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 807 by ringo, posted 02-24-2019 1:15 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 807 of 858 (849091)
02-24-2019 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 806 by AZPaul3
02-23-2019 5:03 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Hmm.... According to Wikipedia, "Lot's daughters may have feared that they were the last humans on earth and wanted to preserve the human race."

An end-of-the-world Dr. Strangelove kind of thing?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 806 by AZPaul3, posted 02-23-2019 5:03 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 808 by Theodoric, posted 02-24-2019 1:34 PM ringo has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 808 of 858 (849093)
02-24-2019 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 807 by ringo
02-24-2019 1:15 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
In other words people can read anything into the text that they want.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 807 by ringo, posted 02-24-2019 1:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 809 by ringo, posted 02-24-2019 1:46 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 809 of 858 (849094)
02-24-2019 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 808 by Theodoric
02-24-2019 1:34 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Theodoric writes:

In other words people can read anything into the text that they want.


Yeah. The text does seem to suggest homosexual rape but it's funny (not ha-ha) how fundies focus on the homosexual part and not the rape part.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 808 by Theodoric, posted 02-24-2019 1:34 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 810 of 858 (849104)
02-24-2019 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 646 by ringo
01-09-2019 5:03 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
The fictional character "Satan" represents our own free will. What "Satan" wants IS what we want. Every time we're tempted to do something that we "shouldn't", we're wanting to be independent of God.
And you trust your senses and logic in making these choices.
ringo writes:

...I have never chosen to go to Hell and I never will.

What if Hell was marketed as a cool destination, like Bermuda. Would it be possible to be fooled by the brochures?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 646 by ringo, posted 01-09-2019 5:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 811 by ringo, posted 02-24-2019 4:39 PM Phat has responded

  
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