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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member
Posts: 17399
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 811 of 858 (849107)
02-24-2019 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 810 by Thugpreacha
02-24-2019 4:24 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

And you trust your senses and logic in making these choices.


What else is there?

And it's done pretty well for me so far. I've never been to prison, unlike Kent Hovind, who uses your plan.

Phat writes:

What if Hell was marketed as a cool destination, like Bermuda. Would it be possible to be fooled by the brochures?


Why don't you market it that way then?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 810 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-24-2019 4:24 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 812 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-25-2019 9:54 AM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12967
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 812 of 858 (849117)
02-25-2019 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 811 by ringo
02-24-2019 4:39 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
phat writes:

What if Hell was marketed as a cool destination, like Bermuda. Would it be possible to be fooled by the brochures?

ringo writes:

Why don't you market it that way then?

Well for one thing, I'm not interested in drawing tenants, but if I were Satan, and knowing full well the peculiarities of todays world, I would make hell look like church for the believers...but for you science types, I would first off make sure not to appear religious at all. I would fill your heads full of half truths, such as "Noah had to build his own ark". Nevermind that He needed Gods quiet inner voice to complete it. I would, in fact, attempt to persuade people that God was a myth and so was Jesus. It would be even better if they thought I was a myth, for they wouldnt see the blindsided punch coming. I would trick them into holding fiercely on to their freedom from religion, unless they were believers. In essence I would use religion as a double edged sword...ridiculed in front of the unbelievers, deified in front of the believers.

I would throw in all of the pleasing vices that men enjoy.

I suppose that were i satan, my goal would be to convince everyone to simply commune with each other in a humanist socialist utopia and attempt to make a better human race for eternity...no God required.

Then again, we could flip this tale on its head and say that perhaps thats what God is trying to do....eliminate religion, unify humanity, and become a socialist brotherhood. None of you guys seem to think too much of the God of the Bible, however....so warming up to Him would require extra measures.

quote:
One of the marks of the truly religious God-believer is his or her willingness to speak their mind honestly to God, much as King David did in the Psalms. Well, whether everything in your family is going well, or disaster has struck again, here is a way to send God some feedback. (Delivery instructions not included.)

GOD'S TOTAL QUALITY MANAGEMENT QUESTIONNAIRE

God would like to thank you for your belief and patronage. In order to better serve your needs, He asks that you take a few moments to answer the following questions. Please keep in mind that your responses will be kept completely confidential, and that you need not disclose your name or address unless you prefer a direct response to comments or suggestions.

1. How did you find out about God?
__Newspaper __Other Book __Television __Divine Inspiration __Word of mouth __Near Death Experience __Bible __Torah __Other

2. Are you currently using any other source of inspiration in addition to God? Please check all that apply.
__Tarot __Lottery __Horoscope __Television __Fortune cookies __Ann Landers __Self-help books __Sex __Biorythms __Alcohol or drugs __Insurance policies __Mantras __None __Other: _____________________

3. God employs a limited degree of Divine Intervention to preserve the balanced level of felt presence and blind faith. Which would you prefer (circle one)?
a. More Divine Intervention
b. Less Divine Intervention
c. Current level of Divine Intervention is just right
d. Don't know

4. God also attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters and miracles. Please rate on a scale of 1-5 the divine handling of the following (1=unsatisfactory, 5=excellent):
a. Disasters (flood, famine, earthquake, war) 1 2 3 4 5
b. Miracles (rescues, spontaneous remission of disease, sports upsets) 1 2 3 4 5

5. Do you have any additional comments or suggestions for improving the quality of God's services? (Attach an additional sheet if necessary):
_________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________



Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 811 by ringo, posted 02-24-2019 4:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 813 by ringo, posted 02-25-2019 10:54 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17399
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 813 of 858 (849119)
02-25-2019 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 812 by Thugpreacha
02-25-2019 9:54 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

I would fill your heads full of half truths, such as "Noah had to build his own ark". Nevermind that He needed Gods quiet inner voice to complete it.


When you make up stuff like, "He needed Gods quiet inner voice to complete it," and duct-tape it to what the Bible says, that doesn't make the Bible a "half-truth".

Phat writes:

None of you guys seem to think too much of the God of the Bible, however....so warming up to Him would require extra measures.


You're the one who rejects what's in the Bible and makes up all kinds of fiction about this "Satan" character. Why should we "warm up' to a God character that you made up in your head?

" God also attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters and miracles."

What an incredibly stupid thing to say. Why would you pay any attention to the idiot who said that? And why would you have any use for a God who behaved like that?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 812 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-25-2019 9:54 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 814 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-25-2019 11:19 AM ringo has responded
 Message 817 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-27-2019 9:55 AM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12967
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 814 of 858 (849121)
02-25-2019 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 813 by ringo
02-25-2019 10:54 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
What an incredibly stupid thing to say. Why would you pay any attention to the idiot who said that? And why would you have any use for a God who behaved like that?
Gosh, you are right! I was seduced by humor, but it seems to have bounced off you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 813 by ringo, posted 02-25-2019 10:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 815 by ringo, posted 02-25-2019 11:29 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17399
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 815 of 858 (849122)
02-25-2019 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 814 by Thugpreacha
02-25-2019 11:19 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

I was seduced by humor, but it seems to have bounced off you.


Poe's Law:
Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to create a parody of extreme views in such a way that someone won't mistake it for the genuine article.

It was "humor" with an agenda - much like the "joke" about atheists going out and raping, murdering, etc. because there is no God.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 814 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-25-2019 11:19 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 816 of 858 (849168)
02-27-2019 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 741 by Thugpreacha
02-12-2019 12:39 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
Phat, I see everybody crying and whining about God and about how unfair He is.

Well, guess what! God has shut the vast majority of them off from Him.

When the twelve Apostles asked Jesus the meaning of a certain parable His reply was: Mark 4:11-12.

"Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

Pretty clear language, isn't it?

How about this in John 6:44:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..."

Also Romans 8:29-30

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be confirmed to the image of His Son, that he might be the first born among many brethren:

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Predestinate is from "Proorizo," which means to "limit in advance."

To limit in advance is also true in Ephesians 1:5,11.

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will."

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated (limited in advance) according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will."

For those who want no part of God they can have what they want.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-12-2019 12:39 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 818 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-27-2019 10:04 AM candle2 has responded
 Message 822 by ringo, posted 02-27-2019 2:22 PM candle2 has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12967
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 817 of 858 (849170)
02-27-2019 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 813 by ringo
02-25-2019 10:54 AM


Characters
Characters form empathy or indifference. We warm up to heroes and decry villains. You have a valid case about the God of the Bible being at times every bit as villainous as not....I suppose one major way in which we differ is that I have a preconceived notion of this larger than life character which differs substanteouly from what plain reading might suggest.
You're the one who rejects what's in the Bible and makes up all kinds of fiction about this "Satan" character. Why should we "warm up' to a God character that you made up in your head?
I get your point, but the way that you phrase it annoys me. It does cause me to think, however. Songs sung long ago in church come wafting back to me.... Revelation Song - Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God almighty etc....

In fact I can make your argument challenging me as I think of my own argument. In essence, my argument is why not get to know God as we understand Him and not simply as the book coldly portrays Him. The counter-argument would assert that this is part of the problem with modern day Christianity...that they create their own character. You then would (again) point out that all that we can know of the character comes from the text of the book and not from any songwriters imagination. I would become exasperated and give up trying to explain to you that God is larger than the book and that belief is not making Him up so much as it is understanding Who He acually is.

You then would explain to me that the message is what is important.(again)

I would attempt to get you to make up God (hypothetically) rather than simply limiting any possible attributes to the book.

You would conclude the argument by saying "Thanks, but I'd rather not."

Sound close?

One further thought: Many of our arguments here (Free Will vs Omniscience) (Who Made God?) by necessity assume the rhetorical and imaginative. I started this particular argument that we are continuing now by asking how hypothetically a character named Satan could and would seduce people. You turned it around on itself and brought up the reality of the characters as you see them in the book. Interesting rabbit trail we are on here...


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 813 by ringo, posted 02-25-2019 10:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 819 by Stile, posted 02-27-2019 10:20 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 821 by ringo, posted 02-27-2019 2:13 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12967
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 818 of 858 (849171)
02-27-2019 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 816 by candle2
02-27-2019 7:31 AM


Character Evaluation: Both His and Ours
For those who want no part of God they can have what they want.
Follow my argument with ringo and see if you understand how I am framing it. I see your point in that God is described adequately through scripture and is not a made up character. Critics would argue that modern day Christianity excels at making up (marketing) a character and that the whole "we can have a personal relationship with Him" is, in essence, a marketing scam.

Well, guess what! God has shut the vast majority of them off from Him.
I totally understand your argument, but in the interests of debate, seek to weave it into my argument with ringo. ringo seems to think that humans dictate the terms and not God. He mentions a God that is useful *to us* and not the other way around. ringo was raised in church life for 1/3 of his long life and he knows scripture. You may argue that he does not know God. So....my question to you, (involving you in the argument) is how would you persuade someone such as him that God has not simply shut him off from the knowledge due to his irreverent behavior towards the One whom he sees as simply a character in the book?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 7:31 AM candle2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 823 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 4:03 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3847
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 819 of 858 (849174)
02-27-2019 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 817 by Thugpreacha
02-27-2019 9:55 AM


Re: Characters
Phat writes:

I would become exasperated and give up trying to explain to you that God is larger than the book and that belief is not making Him up so much as it is understanding Who He actually is.

How do you tell the difference between the following experiences:

1. Honestly understanding something "correctly" leading to a valid belief in who God actually is.

2. Honestly, but unknowingly, understanding something "incorrectly" leading to an invalid belief in who God actually is.

Is it even possible to tell the difference for such an idea as "God?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 817 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-27-2019 9:55 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 820 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-27-2019 10:27 AM Stile has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12967
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 820 of 858 (849175)
02-27-2019 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 819 by Stile
02-27-2019 10:20 AM


Re: Characters
Is it even possible to tell the difference for such an idea as "God?"
Good question. How would we test it? What standards would we use? In so doing, would we sabotage the experiment or further its honesty?

So many questions, so little time.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 819 by Stile, posted 02-27-2019 10:20 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 834 by Stile, posted 02-28-2019 11:37 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17399
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 821 of 858 (849181)
02-27-2019 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 817 by Thugpreacha
02-27-2019 9:55 AM


Re: Characters
Phat writes:

I suppose one major way in which we differ is that I have a preconceived notion of this larger than life character which differs substanteouly from what plain reading might suggest.


And yet you have the gall to complain when I suggest that the stories in the book are made up.

Phat writes:

In essence, my argument is why not get to know God as we understand Him and not simply as the book coldly portrays Him.


That's pretty arrogant, isn't it? Thinking you know better than the people who wrote the books and the people who chose the books for canon?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 817 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-27-2019 9:55 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 827 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-28-2019 5:39 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17399
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 822 of 858 (849182)
02-27-2019 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 816 by candle2
02-27-2019 7:31 AM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
candle2 writes:

Well, guess what! God has shut the vast majority of them off from Him.


Yes, God has chosen you and your congregation and He's built a lake of fire big enough for the rest of us. Or maybe it's Faith and her congregation who are the Real Chosen People™. They might well consign you to the lake of fire.

Or maybe the Catholics are right. Or the Jews. Or the Muslims. Or the Hindus. Or the Raelians. Or the Scientologists.

candle2 writes:

For those who want no part of God they can have what they want.


Can we turn down His invitation to the lake of fire? If not, we don't have free will.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 7:31 AM candle2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 825 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 5:48 PM ringo has responded
 Message 830 by candle2, posted 02-28-2019 7:52 AM ringo has responded

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 823 of 858 (849183)
02-27-2019 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 818 by Thugpreacha
02-27-2019 10:04 AM


Re: Character Evaluation: Both His and Ours
While it is true that God predestinated certain people, it is important to know what they were chosen for.

They were not chosen because God shows partiality. He is not a respecter of person (Acts 10:34).

They are to be the Firstfruits. Each of them have been called (down through the ages) by God.

Remember that Jesus knew of a certainty that He would need to die for our sin. He also knew His elect by name long before they were born. He called them for a purpose.

The Fruitfruits are in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:5-6). The test of the dead comes up in the second resurrection, a thousand years later.

They will reign with Christ ( as God Beings). They will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Rev. 2:27 ; 5:10.

Those in the second resurrection will consist of everyone who has ever lived. They will be resurrected flesh and blood and told that Christ has paid the price for them.

They will be given access to God's Holy Spirit and they will then be taught what God truly desires of them. Upon real conversion they will then become spirit beings--sons of God.

There is a third resurrection. It will consist of those who were truly evil during their lifetime. They refused to have anything to do with decency.

God, in all His love, will use everything He has to get people to convert, but He won't force them.

They will be burned up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 818 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-27-2019 10:04 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 824 by Tangle, posted 02-27-2019 4:40 PM candle2 has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7086
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 824 of 858 (849186)
02-27-2019 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 823 by candle2
02-27-2019 4:03 PM


Re: Character Evaluation: Both His and Ours
quote:
God, in all His love, will use everything He has to get people to convert, but He won't force them.

They will be burned up.


God, in all his love, will burn me up.

He really believes this shit and doesn't even notice the contradiction.
Amazing.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 4:03 PM candle2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by candle2, posted 02-28-2019 6:47 AM Tangle has responded

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 65
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 825 of 858 (849188)
02-27-2019 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 822 by ringo
02-27-2019 2:22 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
No one burns in hell for eternity. However, you are free to turn God down on His offer for eternal life. It would be really difficult to see someone as having any common sense if theys did this though.

But, there is no burning in hell for eternity. Sorry that you believe there is


This message is a reply to:
 Message 822 by ringo, posted 02-27-2019 2:22 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 826 by Tangle, posted 02-27-2019 6:13 PM candle2 has responded
 Message 831 by ringo, posted 02-28-2019 10:43 AM candle2 has not yet responded

    
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