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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7132
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 826 of 858 (849189)
02-27-2019 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by candle2
02-27-2019 5:48 PM


Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
candle writes:

No one burns in hell for eternity.

Just a bit of burning then. Not forever. How reassuring.

However, you are free to turn God down on His offer for eternal life.

Thanks, I'll pass.

It would be really difficult to see someone as having any common sense if theys did this though.

You wouldn't know common sense if it sat naked on your face.

But, there is no burning in hell for eternity. Sorry that you believe there is

You've no idea how grateful I am for that special insight you have into your god's mind. Thanks for sharing.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 5:48 PM candle2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 829 by candle2, posted 02-28-2019 6:55 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13216
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 827 of 858 (849194)
02-28-2019 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 821 by ringo
02-27-2019 2:13 PM


Re: Characters
ringo writes:

That's pretty arrogant, isn't it? Thinking you know better than the people who wrote the books and the people who chose the books for canon?

Let's address this argument for a moment. I have a smartphone. There is an internet connection to a world of information that the early Church Fathers did not have. We both have essentially the same book. Thus, the only way they could be wiser than I am is:
  • God made them that way.
  • They prayed and fasted more than I do.
  • They believed stronger than I do.

    Everything else is allegedly the same. Same book. Same God. Same humanity.

    This is why I present the idea that you and I both could write a book. We could include it with the 66. Faith would likely prefer that RC Sproul wrote it, but he too is dead now. Our only hurdle is in agreeing on Who we were writing about. And all we are doing is elaborating on your valued concept of what the message is.

    Being in agreement seems to be a major hurdle in religion.

    And could a fundie really write a book with a secular humanist and see eye to eye?

    Edited by Phat, : spelling


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 821 by ringo, posted 02-27-2019 2:13 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 832 by ringo, posted 02-28-2019 10:55 AM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    candle2
    Member
    Posts: 65
    Joined: 12-31-2018


    Message 828 of 858 (849195)
    02-28-2019 6:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 824 by Tangle
    02-27-2019 4:40 PM


    Re: Character Evaluation: Both His and Ours
    Absolutely He will burn those who do not want to be a part of His family up.

    He is not about to give people who are miserable, and full of hate for Him, eternal life.

    Do you really wish to burn with incredible pain for eternity or would you rather remain dead and unconscious?

    God is loving enough to give those with righteous character eternal life, and He will share the entire universe with them. Character is of the upmost importance.

    If you are not intelligent enough to choose eternal life as a God being then you won't get itt. But don't be angry with God; He will give you the free will to choose.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 824 by Tangle, posted 02-27-2019 4:40 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 842 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2019 3:36 PM candle2 has not yet responded

      
    candle2
    Member
    Posts: 65
    Joined: 12-31-2018


    Message 829 of 858 (849196)
    02-28-2019 6:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 826 by Tangle
    02-27-2019 6:13 PM


    Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
    Your replies on #826 are more like those of a little kid who just wants to be argumentative.

    You make no attempt to have a back and forth dialogue as adults.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 826 by Tangle, posted 02-27-2019 6:13 PM Tangle has not yet responded

      
    candle2
    Member
    Posts: 65
    Joined: 12-31-2018


    Message 830 of 858 (849197)
    02-28-2019 7:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 822 by ringo
    02-27-2019 2:22 PM


    Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
    At least I know what I believe. You,on the other hand, have no idea what you believe.

    You are like a piece of paper tossed in the air that just blows about.

    You do have free will. You just don't know how to use it.

    Because one is not predestinated doesn't mean that they can't have a r/s with God. It just means that they have not been called to be in the first resurrection.

    The second resurrection is a resurrection to judgement. It is not a resurrection to sentencing.

    In the second resurrection the "books of life" are opened. Rev. 20.

    Read the other two chapters of Revelations. One will clearly see that eternal life is being offered

    So yes, you will have to make a choice. You will have the free will to do that.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 822 by ringo, posted 02-27-2019 2:22 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 833 by ringo, posted 02-28-2019 11:03 AM candle2 has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17553
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 831 of 858 (849203)
    02-28-2019 10:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 825 by candle2
    02-27-2019 5:48 PM


    Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
    candle2 writes:

    No one burns in hell for eternity.


    Jesus disagrees with you:
    quote:
    Matthew 25:40-41 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 825 by candle2, posted 02-27-2019 5:48 PM candle2 has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17553
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 832 of 858 (849204)
    02-28-2019 10:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 827 by Thugpreacha
    02-28-2019 5:39 AM


    Re: Characters
    Phat writes:

    There is an internet connection to a world of information that the early Church Fathers did not have. We both have essentially the same book. Thus, the only way they could be wiser than I am is:
    • God made them that way.

    •They prayed and fasted more than I do.

    • They believed stronger than I do.


    You're missing the most important factor:

  • Most of the Internet is wrong.

    The photos of sharks eating helicopters are wrong. The conspiracy theories are wrong. The creationist claims are wrong. And the apologist nonsense that you have been spoon-fed is wrong.

    Phat writes:

    This is why I present the idea that you and I both could write a book.... Our only hurdle is in agreeing on Who we were writing about. And all we are doing is elaborating on your valued concept of what the message is.


    No. The message is universal. Virtually every religion values or pretends to value the message that I value. The hurdle we would have is that you insist on throwing that message away and keeping the envelope.

    Phat writes:

    Being in agreement seems to be a major hurdle in religion.


    Which is why it is arrogant to think that you, of all the Internet addicts, has The Real Truth™ straight from God's lips to your shell-like ear.

    Phat writes:

    And could a fundie really write a book with a secular humanist and see eye to eye?


    Are you suggesting that fundies aren't quite human?

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 827 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-28-2019 5:39 AM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 837 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-28-2019 12:36 PM ringo has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17553
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 833 of 858 (849205)
    02-28-2019 11:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 830 by candle2
    02-28-2019 7:52 AM


    Re: GOD: Complex or ET?
    candle2 writes:

    At least I know what I believe. You,on the other hand, have no idea what you believe.


    YOU have no idea what I believe.

    candle1 writes:

    Because one is not predestinated doesn't mean that they can't have a r/s with God. It just means that they have not been called to be in the first resurrection.

    The second resurrection is a resurrection to judgement. It is not a resurrection to sentencing.

    In the second resurrection the "books of life" are opened. Rev. 20.

    Read the other two chapters of Revelations. One will clearly see that eternal life is being offered


    There is nothing remotely "clear" about your one, two, three resurrections rubbish.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 830 by candle2, posted 02-28-2019 7:52 AM candle2 has not yet responded

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 3863
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 834 of 858 (849211)
    02-28-2019 11:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 820 by Thugpreacha
    02-27-2019 10:27 AM


    Re: Characters
    Phat writes:

    Stile writes:

    How do you tell the difference between the following experiences:

    1. Honestly understanding something "correctly" leading to a valid belief in who God actually is.

    2. Honestly, but unknowingly, understanding something "incorrectly" leading to an invalid belief in who God actually is.

    How would we test it? What standards would we use?

    This is exactly the problem.

    So many questions, so little time.

    I submit that this in the most important question.
    That is - if you cannot obtain a satisfactory answer for this question - how can you make any meaningful progress on any other question regarding God?

    Of course, this makes one assumption - that the primary concern is about getting the truth of the situation - understanding God/reality.

    If you feel/see yourself moving on and only keeping this question in the back of your mind - then this is an indication that you do not have "pursuit of the truth" as a primary priority.

    You then hold something else as a priority.
    It could be any number of things:
    -You want to feel better (quell fears/gain confidence/personal reassurrance)
    -You want to control others (use the idea of God to manipulate other people)
    -You want to make money (religion is just a tool, not a truth)
    -Plenty of other things could be here, too

    If "understanding God" is actually a priority - I would return to focusing on the original question.
    If not - I would suggest attempting to identify what your priority actually is.
    If it's one of the negative ones (controlling others, making money by using religion....) then I offer you no additional help and I wish for your failure.
    If it's one of the positive ones (feeling better...) then I suggest that you focus your pursuit with clarity (religion is a tool you're using to feel better... not a pursuit of truth) in order to make progress.

    You can still believe and use religion as a tool to feel better - it will only make your state-of-mind stronger to be able to identify when your religious ideas should be influencing your pursuit of truth about reality and when they shouldn't.

    By the way - anyone who tells you religion should "always" affect your state of mind is wrong.
    It makes for a nice saying to a crowd... but it only causes negative side effects if actually used in practice.

    Just ask if they consult The Bible when attempting to navigate traffic regulations?
    They probably don't - point proven.
    Or maybe they do - and if so, then they are terrible drivers and the point is proven again.

    "Jesus take the wheel" is a metaphor - not something to actually be done with a vehicle.

    Edited by Stile, : Fixing quotes


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 820 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-27-2019 10:27 AM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 835 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-28-2019 11:54 AM Stile has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13216
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 835 of 858 (849212)
    02-28-2019 11:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 834 by Stile
    02-28-2019 11:37 AM


    Re: Characters
    stile writes:

    I submit that this in the most important question.
    That is - if you cannot obtain a satisfactory answer for this question - how can you make any meaningful progress on any other question regarding God?

    Upon re-examining your two choices, I would go with #2, It is important for me personally that God exists and is interactive with me. If I am honestly wrong about His abilities or intentions, it is not due to a lack of effort on my part.

    Apart from a twinge of conscience over not laying it *all* on the line and giving all of my time and spare change in helping others, I generally live each day trying to say prayers, do what good I can, and otherwise take care of myself and those I love as best as I can. Small doses of guilt can be mildly therapeutic, but in large doses, guilt can be fatal.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 834 by Stile, posted 02-28-2019 11:37 AM Stile has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 836 by Stile, posted 02-28-2019 12:09 PM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 3863
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 836 of 858 (849214)
    02-28-2019 12:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 835 by Thugpreacha
    02-28-2019 11:54 AM


    Re: Characters
    Phat writes:

    Upon re-examining your two choices, I would go with #2

    The question isn't "which of those better describes your situation."
    The question is "how do you tell the difference between 1 and 2?"

    It is important for me personally that God exists and is interactive with me.

    Right.
    Now - is it more important for you to feel that God exists and is interactive with you more so than if God is actually interacting with you?
    -if so, then your feelings are a higher priority than the truth of God/reality
    -in which case, most of my previous reply will hopefully be helpful

    Or - is it more important for you to know that God exists and is interactive with you more than the feelings you receive thinking about such an idea?
    -if so, then the truth of God/reality is a higher priority than your feelings on the matter
    -in which case - you really, really need an answer for the question of "how do you tell the difference between 1 and 2?" in order to make any progress

    If I am honestly wrong about His abilities or intentions, it is not due to a lack of effort on my part.

    Perhaps I am misinterpreting your intentions.
    Perhaps, by saying "I would go with #2" you mean to inform me that you acknowledge that your feelings are a higher priority than the truth of God/reality?

    If so - there's nothing wrong with that.
    And anyone who tries to make you feel bad about it is, in fact, wrong themselves.

    Also - it has no bearing on God's actual existence.
    In fact, it could quite possible mean that you want God to exist more than someone who's primary concern is the truth of God/reality.
    (That is, if your primary concern is the truth - you wouldn't be so focused on "Godly things" as you would be focused on "how to identify reality.")

    Can you see here how reflection on your priorities can lead you to strengthening your beliefs as opposed to weakening your faith (as some others may attempt to imply it is doing?)


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 835 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-28-2019 11:54 AM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 839 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-28-2019 2:21 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13216
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 837 of 858 (849215)
    02-28-2019 12:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 832 by ringo
    02-28-2019 10:55 AM


    Re: Characters
    The message is universal. Virtually every religion values or pretends to value the message that I value. The hurdle we would have is that you insist on throwing that message away and keeping the envelope.
    Ahhh yes. Our old argument. Thus, the major hurdle preventing cooperation between you and I is that you value *doing* the message and I value *knowing and counting on* the messenger.
    Did it ever occur to you that an older man with health issues needs a messenger/rescuer/reassurer more than being told that he himself needs to build his own boat and focus on the needs of others? If I were 20, strapping and strong than sure...send me to the army! It is the duty of the strong to help the weak.

    As for my arrogance, I confess. To me, it is more confidence and hope in a rescuer. I need no guilt over the fact that I can't give as much as I should. I need a promise that I will receive what I need. And if Im selfish as well as arrogant, I bow at the altar.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 832 by ringo, posted 02-28-2019 10:55 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 838 by ringo, posted 02-28-2019 12:50 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17553
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 838 of 858 (849217)
    02-28-2019 12:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 837 by Thugpreacha
    02-28-2019 12:36 PM


    Re: Characters
    Phat writes:

    Did it ever occur to you that an older man with health issues needs a messenger/rescuer/reassurer more than being told that he himself needs to build his own boat and focus on the needs of others?


    Well, I'm older than you... and I don't recall Jesus putting an expiry date on the message.

    Phat writes:

    It is the duty of the strong to help the weak.


    Consider the widow who helped Elijah. We don't get to decide whether we are the strong or the weak. Contribute what you can and have faith that you'll get what you need.

    Phat writes:

    As for my arrogance, I confess. To me, it is more confidence and hope in a rescuer.


    The arrogance that I am talking about is the insistance that you know exactly Who the rescuer is. You'll send away the policeman and the boat and the helicopter because you want to dictate how you will be rescued.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 837 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-28-2019 12:36 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13216
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 839 of 858 (849220)
    02-28-2019 2:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 836 by Stile
    02-28-2019 12:09 PM


    Re: Characters
    In fact, it could quite possible mean that you want God to exist more than someone whose primary concern is the truth of God/reality.
    I suspect this is true. ringo wants the message to be true more than he wants to know or identify if there is an actual messenger or not. I want the help.

    To be frank, Stile---I see my opponents argument. It is reality and evidence-based. My argument is more fantasy and wishful. I would not want a God to exist who expected humans to have to do everything.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 836 by Stile, posted 02-28-2019 12:09 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 840 by ringo, posted 02-28-2019 2:38 PM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17553
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 840 of 858 (849221)
    02-28-2019 2:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 839 by Thugpreacha
    02-28-2019 2:21 PM


    Re: Characters
    Phat writes:

    ringo wants the message to be true more than he wants to know or identify if there is an actual messenger or not.


    It has nothing to do with what I want. The message IS true. It works, in a social species. I'm just not that impressed that the messenger you obsess about managed to grasp the message that millions of other humans understand.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 839 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-28-2019 2:21 PM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 841 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-28-2019 2:54 PM ringo has responded

      
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