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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 841 of 858 (849222)
02-28-2019 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 840 by ringo
02-28-2019 2:38 PM


Re: Characters
I'm just not that impressed that the messenger you obsess about managed to grasp the message that millions of other humans understand.

If it were that easy, the whole world would easily embrace your message. Why do you think they don't? I know why they dont embrace it.
1) Many are selfish. In addition, they are conservative and don't believe that there ever will be a free lunch. Especially if they have to make it.
2) Many dont trust organized religion or the motives of them.
3) There is no proven track record that giving everything away to the society provides that that society than support you.

As far as Omniscience goes, I feel that God foresaw this eventuality. He is giving you guys your free will to figure out how to make it work without His interference.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 840 by ringo, posted 02-28-2019 2:38 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 845 by ringo, posted 03-01-2019 10:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6675
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 842 of 858 (849226)
02-28-2019 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 828 by candle2
02-28-2019 6:47 AM


Re: Character Evaluation: Both His and Ours
candle writes:

Absolutely He will burn those who do not want to be a part of His family up.

Your god sounds like total arsehole. What a nasty piece of work.

He is not about to give people who are miserable, and full of hate for Him, eternal life.

Phew, for a minute there you had me worried. i'm a fairly cheery sort of chap and I can't hate someone that doesn't exist, so I guess I'll be fine.

Do you really wish to burn with incredible pain for eternity or would you rather remain dead and unconscious?

This is your loving god is it? I think I'll pass thanks.

God is loving enough to give those with righteous character eternal life, and He will share the entire universe with them. Character is of the upmost importance.

Sounds more like a psychpath to me.

If you are not intelligent enough to choose eternal life as a God being then you won't get itt.

If you think you're intelligent enough to get it, I reckon I'm safe.

But don't be angry with God; He will give you the free will to choose.

How can anybody be angry about somebody that doesn't exist.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 828 by candle2, posted 02-28-2019 6:47 AM candle2 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 843 by Phat, posted 02-28-2019 3:53 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 843 of 858 (849229)
02-28-2019 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 842 by Tangle
02-28-2019 3:36 PM


Re: Character Evaluation: Both His and Ours
See? This is why I would rather imagine God as I feel He actually is rather than go with this autocratic notion that the book supposedly teaches.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 842 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2019 3:36 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 844 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2019 5:27 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6675
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 844 of 858 (849234)
02-28-2019 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 843 by Phat
02-28-2019 3:53 PM


Re: Character Evaluation: Both His and Ours
Phat writes:

See?

Yup, it's pretty bloody obvious isn't it?

This is why I would rather imagine God as I feel He actually is rather than go with this autocratic notion that the book supposedly teaches.

Of course, any sane person would. The trouble is that the evidence for this arsehole of a god is in your damn book. Luckily the majority of Western Christians have reformed the religion and moderated it into a nice liberal thing. You could do a lot worse that 'convert' to Anglicanism.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by Phat, posted 02-28-2019 3:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 845 of 858 (849240)
03-01-2019 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 841 by Phat
02-28-2019 2:54 PM


Re: Characters
Phat writes:

If it were that easy, the whole world would easily embrace your message.


It isn't "my" message. It's a universal message.

Phat writes:

Why do you think they don't?


What makes you think they don't?

Phat writes:

Many are selfish. In addition, they are conservative and don't believe that there ever will be a free lunch. Especially if they have to make it.


Indeed. And most of them are religious.

Phat writes:

Many dont trust organized religion or the motives of them.


Now you're arguingng against yourself. Remember, you're the religious one and you're the one who's arguing against the message.

Phat writes:

There is no proven track record that giving everything away to the society provides that that society than support you.


Of course there is.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 841 by Phat, posted 02-28-2019 2:54 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 846 of 858 (849242)
03-01-2019 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Stile
07-21-2015 9:01 AM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Stile writes:

We are here in 2015.
Assume that God exists, but the world is exactly as it is now (God doesn't seem to interfere, no objective evidence, no one can "prove" God...)
Let's say that in 2025, I'm going to have a choice.
The choice in front of me is to go left or right down a hiking path I'm taking a leisurely walk on.
Let's say that the fork in the road joins up again later so my final destination will be the same.
God looks ahead in time ('cause He can do that) and sees that my free-will choice will be to go left.
God never tells me about it.
God never tells anyone about it.

Allow me to customize your scenario.
We are here in 2019. In 2025, I get cancer. God technically knew that it would happen eternally. Cancer is part of a fallen world. A world of imperfection. ringo will argue that if God is all powerful He should protect us from such things. My counter-argument is that if God prevented all calamity and evil, it would be a far different life. We would not need many of the evolutionary adaptations which we now have. We would likely simply be giant brains (like that star trek episode) in communion with God. THEN what would we do? How is that scenario a relevant answer that humanity demands from God? Does He not have the right to create and allow things to run their course? Besides...the evil was another experiment based on free-willed angels who chose to rebel. They too are part of the equation.(hypothetically of course. Run with this one....)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Stile, posted 07-21-2015 9:01 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 853 by Stile, posted 03-07-2019 1:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 847 of 858 (849333)
03-06-2019 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ringo
07-21-2015 12:20 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
ringo writes:

If God has foreknowledge of evil and doesn't act on it, then He's evil.

If He doesn't have foreknowledge, He may well have other limitations. In His "communion" with you, He may be exaggerating His powers.

If He holds us responsible for our free choices, He must be held responsible for His.

In summary, I don't think either "free will" or "omniscience" is a very useful concept.

I don'tthink that "evil" is a useful concept either. In my mind, natural disasters are not so much evil as they are simply naturally inevitable. Evil is something caused by humans. Thats my definition, anyway.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ringo, posted 07-21-2015 12:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 848 by ringo, posted 03-06-2019 3:06 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 849 by 1.61803, posted 03-06-2019 5:17 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 848 of 858 (849336)
03-06-2019 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 847 by Phat
03-06-2019 2:30 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

In my mind, natural disasters are not so much evil as they are simply naturally inevitable.


Of course the disasters themselves are not evil. An omnipotent being that allows them to happen is.

Phat writes:

Evil is something caused by humans.


Or Gods.

And a sin of omission counts.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 847 by Phat, posted 03-06-2019 2:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2817
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 849 of 858 (849338)
03-06-2019 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 847 by Phat
03-06-2019 2:30 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Is a Lion evil for stalking and killing and eating a zebra?
But if I stalked and killed and ate a zebra would I be evil?
To the zebra it doe not matter.

Maybe evil is knowingly and willingly acting in direct opposition to what is moral.
A human construct.

Some folks seem to think God is evil for allowing evil to exist.
I would rather exist than not exist.
And if a omnipotent God exist and has constructed our existence as such that there must be evil then it is what it is.
If evil in the world is the price we must pay to exist then I will take it. And hope that enough people do what they can to minimize the evil.
Simply going around saying God is evil because no good God would do such things is like saying you think your mother is evil because she gave birth to you and introduced you into a evil world.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 847 by Phat, posted 03-06-2019 2:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 850 by ringo, posted 03-06-2019 5:24 PM 1.61803 has responded
 Message 854 by Stile, posted 03-07-2019 2:09 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 850 of 858 (849340)
03-06-2019 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 849 by 1.61803
03-06-2019 5:17 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
~1.6 writes:

Simply going around saying God is evil because no good God would do such things is like saying you think your mother is evil because she gave birth to you and introduced you into a evil world.


Not at all. Your mother didn't create the evil nor does she have the ability to stop it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 849 by 1.61803, posted 03-06-2019 5:17 PM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 851 by 1.61803, posted 03-06-2019 5:33 PM ringo has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2817
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 851 of 858 (849341)
03-06-2019 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 850 by ringo
03-06-2019 5:24 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
"She could a found a hag with a twig or I miss my guess." Archibald From the movie Rob Roy

But any way I am with Phat on this one. Evil is a human construct.
God is where the buck stops so yes if you want to call God evil then technically you'd be right. But there are other religions where the distinction is not so clear .

Shiva is both the creator and destroyer. Well maybe God is like that.

Edited by 1.61803, : find.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 850 by ringo, posted 03-06-2019 5:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 852 by ringo, posted 03-06-2019 5:41 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 852 of 858 (849342)
03-06-2019 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 851 by 1.61803
03-06-2019 5:33 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
~1.6 writes:

Evil is a human construct.


And we're humans, so that works out nicely for this discussion.

~1.6 writes:

Shiva is both the creator and destroyer.


So is YHWH/Jehovah/God (Isaiah 45:7). It's a requirement of omipotence.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 851 by 1.61803, posted 03-06-2019 5:33 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3393
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 853 of 858 (849388)
03-07-2019 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 846 by Phat
03-01-2019 4:03 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Phat writes:

We are here in 2019. In 2025, I get cancer. God technically knew that it would happen eternally. Cancer is part of a fallen world. A world of imperfection.

Did God create the fallen world?
Did God make it "fallen?"
Did God cause the imperfection when God could have chosen something else?

ringo will argue that if God is all powerful He should protect us from such things.

I don't think he would.
I think ringo would argue (as I do) that if God is all powerful AND God is all-benevolent - then God should protect us from such things.

Obviously, if God isn't all powerful - it doesn't matter if He wants to help, something might be preventing Him
As well, if God isn't all-benevolent - it doesn't matter if He has the power to help, if He doesn't care - why would He?

Therefore:

Given we exist.
Given evil exists.
Given God exists - God is then either not all powerful, or He doesn't care about us as much as human strangers care for each other.

Even the vague idea of "maybe God has a higher plan!" doesn't cut it.
If God does have a higher plan that justifies evil in this world - it means either:

1. God isn't powerful enough to carry out The Plan as well as get rid of evil.
OR
2. God doesn't care about humans enough to carry out The Plan as well as get rid of evil.

If God WAS powerful enough to carry out The Plan and also get rid of evil, and He cared about humans enough to do so - then God would do it, no?
If such was done - no evil would exist. And yet... (insert reality here.)

My counter-argument is that if God prevented all calamity and evil, it would be a far different life. We would not need many of the evolutionary adaptations which we now have. We would likely simply be giant brains (like that star trek episode) in communion with God.

Perhaps.
Perhaps not.

My life wouldn't be much different if rape was removed from the world.
I was never raped, and I don't rape other people. For me - rape is already "removed from the world." I am not a brain in a jar. My life isn't "far different."

People-who've-been-raped would be in a very different - a very "much better" - world if rape was removed from the world.

So - I consider your argument defeated. What do you think?
Perhaps it's defeated because "ALL calamity and evil" doesn't need to be removed.
Perhaps it's defeated because "variety in life is not removed if evil is removed."
It doesn't really matter - it certainly seems defeated either way.

How is that scenario (brains-in-jars) a relevant answer that humanity demands from God?

It isn't, and no one's demanding it.
I am, however, demanding that an all-powerful, all-benevolent God "do better" than this world.
Like remove rape.

Does He not have the right to create and allow things to run their course?

Of course He does.
Just as I have the right to call Him evil if He has the power to stop rape from occurring, but just doesn't care enough to exercise that power.
Just as I have the right to call YOU evil if you had the power to stop rape from occurring, but just didn't care enough to exercise that power.

Besides...the evil was another experiment based on free-willed angels who chose to rebel. They too are part of the equation.(hypothetically of course. Run with this one....)

I don't know what to do with this part.
I don't understand the relevance, or - really - any of it.
What is "the evil?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 846 by Phat, posted 03-01-2019 4:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3393
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 854 of 858 (849389)
03-07-2019 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 849 by 1.61803
03-06-2019 5:17 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
1.61803 writes:

Is a Lion evil for stalking and killing and eating a zebra?
But if I stalked and killed and ate a zebra would I be evil?
To the zebra it doe not matter.

You're right that the zebra doesn't care who's killing it.
However - I'm sure that the zebra thinks both you and the Lion are equally evil.

The problem is that "an action" in and of itself isn't what defines morality.
Morality is defined by the resulting feelings of whoever's-affected-by-the-action.

To prove the point, take something simple:

Opening a door for someone.
Almost everyone would say "yes, that's a moral thing to do."

Now, let's say we have someone who everyone knows doesn't like to have the door opened for them - they want to open the door on their own.
You know this, but you jump in front and open the door for them anyway.
Again - almost everyone would say "what a dick - that's not a moral thing to do."

But it was the same action - opening the door for someone.

If such a simple action can't morally be defined one way or another - why would a complicated action like "killing something" be easier to define?

Maybe evil is knowingly and willingly acting in direct opposition to what is moral.
A human construct.

Maybe evil is knowingly and willingly acting in direct opposition to what is expected/requested.
Still a human/intelligence construct.

And if a omnipotent God exist and has constructed our existence as such that there must be evil then it is what it is.

This sentence is not consistent.
How is God "omnipotent" if there's something He can't do? (That is - construct existence such that evil is not a necessity.)
God could be "very power" or "the most-powerful-possible" and be stuck in the problem you describe - but He can't be Omnipotent or All-Powerful.

God would be limited by the rules of "existence constructing" in the sense that it's impossible (for God) to construct an existence that does not include evil.
Any such limitation is the direct opposite of the idea around "omnipotence."

Simply going around saying God is evil because no good God would do such things is like saying you think your mother is evil because she gave birth to you and introduced you into a evil world.

If what you say is true - that God is not all-powerful and only doing His best - then you're absolutely right.

The problem is that this isn't what the saying of "no good God would do such things" is about - this saying is only brought up in response to a God that is trumpeted as actually being all-powerful - no restrictions, can do anything.

If you'd like to say that such a notion is immature and obviously not intended...
I would agree that it's immature, but it is actually almost always intended when talking about "God" in the modern North American sense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 849 by 1.61803, posted 03-06-2019 5:17 PM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 855 by 1.61803, posted 03-07-2019 5:17 PM Stile has responded

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2817
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 855 of 858 (849392)
03-07-2019 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 854 by Stile
03-07-2019 2:09 PM


Re: ** FOREknowledge**
Hi Stile,

I get what your saying. How can God be omnipotent and not be able to create the world without evil.

That's why one must accept that you can not have things like free will and then expect that someone else's choice may infringe on your freewill.

Someone is gonna get hurt. No way around it. If God exist he certainly is unable to reconcile this issue because maybe he as well is willing to accept the down side in order for us to exist as well. I dont know.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 854 by Stile, posted 03-07-2019 2:09 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 857 by Stile, posted 03-08-2019 8:43 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

  
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