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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 871 of 997 (879747)
07-21-2020 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 861 by PaulK
07-20-2020 9:19 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
PaulK writes:

If we can freely decide to do what God has decided we are going to do (and only that) then it seems to me that God has a good deal more responsibility than we do for our decisions.

This smacks of determinism. We can freely choose to do whatever there is available for us to do. We can feed a bird. Or a homeless man. We can protest government stupidity or excesses of power. We can ignore our family. We can shoot someone.

According to apologetic logic, God allowed an adversary to exist. This adversary is in the angelic class. Don't ask me about the classifications...I will admit that some dogma and myth's sound a bit unnecessary and outlandish. Tangle is a sane one for choosing realism and empiricism, but he insults the many people who have chosen to believe the old stories.
And you may ask why an otherwise intelligent man such as myself chose to believe? My answer, among others, is that I initially wanted a God to exist--but on my terms.My Dad and his generous wallet were sufficient for me in the early years---as I was just simply growing up, exploring reality, and planning an optimistic and successful future. Later, I felt dissatisfied with life and with the way that things were going in the world. Had I grown up today I would have felt even more this way. The real reason that I decided to believe is that I experienced confirmation several times.

PaulK writes:

If you argue that God isn’t going to accept responsibility and is going to put all the blame on us anyway because nobody can make him do otherwise - then I’ll just point out that you are denying that God is good.

I don't think God is blaming humans.He knew that part of the reality of our creation and survival would involve free choice and a spiritual struggle. He allowed the struggle because, as far as I can reason, he had to allow the possibility of autonomy (and rebellion) against Him to exist. It had to be a definite choice.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2020 9:19 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 872 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2020 1:26 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 873 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-21-2020 3:07 PM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 872 of 997 (879748)
07-21-2020 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by Phat
07-21-2020 1:06 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
quote:
This smacks of determinism

It’s actually completely independent of determinism, unless you wish to argue that God’s foreknowledge relies on determinism.

quote:
We can freely choose to do whatever there is available for us to do

And if God is the omniscient, omnipotent creator of all, God decreed those choices in advance and you cannot do anything else - because God cannot be wrong and God set everything up.

quote:
According to apologetic logic, God allowed an adversary to exist

Unless you are going to assume limits on God, God chose that an adversary would exist and all that adversary’s actions. Which means that it isn’t God’s adversary, but might be ours.

quote:
I don't think God is blaming humans

There’s a lot of talk about sin and punishment and the necessity of atonement in the Bible. Which is all a bit of a sham if humans aren’t to blame.

quote:
He knew that part of the reality of our creation and survival would involve free choice and a spiritual struggle. He allowed the struggle because, as far as I can reason, he had to allow the possibility of autonomy (and rebellion) against Him to exist. It had to be a definite choice

But if our choices are all decided in advance it isn’t really rebellion or autonomy. We’re still puppets on unbreakable strings.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 1:06 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 613
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 873 of 997 (879749)
07-21-2020 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 871 by Phat
07-21-2020 1:06 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
The problem is in the statement "he [god] had to allow the possibility of autonomy..."

An omniscient god cannot "allow" anything. If I build a robot and set it off to do its job, even though I may have programmed it perfectly, it could still encounter unforeseen circumstances (a solar flare, chewing gum left on the sidewalk...) and not do as it was built to do.

But an omniscient god cannot be the victim of "unforeseen circumstances"! Therefore you, the descendant of the original "build" back in the garden of Eden, will do as the builder foresaw you would. You have no autonomy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 871 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 1:06 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 874 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 3:20 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 874 of 997 (879751)
07-21-2020 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 873 by Sarah Bellum
07-21-2020 3:07 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Nobody said that God was the "victim" of unforeseen circumstances. Do you honestly think that Jesus was Plan B? Jesus was Plan A from the beginning.

Therefore you, the descendant of the original "build" back in the garden of Eden, will do as the builder foresaw you would. You have no autonomy.
I have the choice to choose autonomy or communion. Even if God somehow foreknew my choice is itself irrelevant to me. And even if I end up accepting your argument that Gods foreknowledge eliminates any choice in the matter, what problem would *you* never mind I have with such a life?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-21-2020 3:07 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 875 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2020 3:32 PM Phat has responded
 Message 876 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-21-2020 3:43 PM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 875 of 997 (879753)
07-21-2020 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 874 by Phat
07-21-2020 3:20 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
quote:
Nobody said that God was the "victim" of unforeseen circumstances. Do you honestly think that Jesus was Plan B? Jesus was Plan A from the beginning.

Then the Fall was also part of “Plan A” from the beginning. Calvinists believe that, but a lot of other Christians insist otherwise,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 874 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 3:20 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 880 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 6:36 PM PaulK has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 613
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 876 of 997 (879754)
07-21-2020 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 874 by Phat
07-21-2020 3:20 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Of course there are (if you postulate an omniscient god) no "unforeseen circumstances"!

If an omniscient god (allegedly) created a universe that ticks away like a perfect clockwork, then, in answer to the topic, there is no free will.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 874 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 3:20 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 877 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 3:57 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 877 of 997 (879757)
07-21-2020 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 876 by Sarah Bellum
07-21-2020 3:43 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Sarah Bellum writes:

If an omniscient god (allegedly) created a universe that ticks away like a perfect clockwork, then, in answer to the topic, there is no free will.

I would argue that within that framework, we can decide to acknowledge and obey or we can decide to ignore and be autonomous or as some would say humanists and responsible for our daily decisions.

And I might add there is no reason we cannot borrow from both extremes.

As far as true Free Will, such as the ability to re-imagine the universe in our image, I would say no---we do not have that kind of free will.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-21-2020 3:43 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 878 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-21-2020 4:22 PM Phat has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 613
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 878 of 997 (879759)
07-21-2020 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 877 by Phat
07-21-2020 3:57 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
If I write a book and on page 1 a character insists they have free will and later, on page 10, they say, "I choose scrambled eggs for breakfast, instead of bangers and mash" you would never say that there was actually a creature that had the free will that that character claims.

So it is with an omniscient god creating the universe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 877 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 3:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 879 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 5:56 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 879 of 997 (879763)
07-21-2020 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 878 by Sarah Bellum
07-21-2020 4:22 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
So you see us as characters in a book? Interesting concept. But what if we co-authored the book with God? We essentially became the decisions we made.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 878 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-21-2020 4:22 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 892 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-22-2020 1:15 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 880 of 997 (879764)
07-21-2020 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 875 by PaulK
07-21-2020 3:32 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
PaulK writes:

Then the Fall was also part of “Plan A” from the beginning. Calvinists believe that, but a lot of other Christians insist otherwise...

To me it makes logical sense that the "Fall" was originally anticipated. jar of course thinks its all silly and that the "Fall" was an apologetic marketing scam and I never can counter his arguments---he basically thinks all apologists are dishonest.

Of course I can and do stick by my guns regarding the basic scenario which I feel is most likely. Granted it is not plainly supportable using the Bible alone, though most apologists run with it--and I think that they feel or believe that some of us have a connection and insight into Gods plan based on our communion through the Spirit. Which opens up a whole nother can o worms as many critics claim that the Bible plainlyu says what it says and can be as easily interpreted by an atheist scholar as it can by an "enlightened" one. So here we are.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 875 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2020 3:32 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 881 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2020 11:59 PM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 881 of 997 (879766)
07-21-2020 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 880 by Phat
07-21-2020 6:36 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
quote:
To me it makes logical sense that the "Fall" was originally anticipated.

OK, so the Fall was part of the plan all along. It does make sense but many Christians don’t want to accept that God wanted it and intended it. Even the Bible usually blames Adam and/or Eve.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 880 by Phat, posted 07-21-2020 6:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 882 by Phat, posted 07-22-2020 1:02 AM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 882 of 997 (879767)
07-22-2020 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 881 by PaulK
07-21-2020 11:59 PM


Yetzer Ha Tov & Yetzer Ha Ra
quote:
OXFORD REFERENCE
Yetzer Ha-Tov and Yetzer Ha-Ra

‘The good inclination and the evil inclination.’ In the typical Rabbinic doctrine, with far-reaching consequences in Jewish religious thought, every human being has two inclinations or instincts, one pulling upwards, the other downwards. These are the ‘good inclination’—yetzer ha-tov—and the ‘evil inclination’—yetzer ha-ra. The ‘evil inclination’ is frequently identified in the Rabbinic literature and elsewhere with the sex instinct but the term also denotes physical appetites in general, aggressive emotions, and unbridled ambition.

Although it is called the ‘evil inclination’, because it can easily lead to wrongdoing, it really denotes more the propensity towards evil rather than something evil in itself. Indeed, in the Rabbinic scheme, the ‘evil inclination’ provides human life with its driving power and as such is essential to human life. As a well-known Mid rash (Genesis Rabbah 9: 7) puts it, were it not for the ‘evil inclination’ no one would build a house or have children or engage in commerce. This is why, according to the Mid rash, Scripture says: ‘And God saw everything that he had made and behold, it was very good’ (Genesis 1: 31). ‘Good’ refers to the ‘good inclination’, ‘very good’ to the ‘evil inclination’. It is not too far-fetched to read into this homily the idea that life without the driving force of the ‘evil inclination’ would no doubt still be good but it would be a colorless, un-creative, pallid kind of good. That which makes life ‘very good’ is the human capacity to struggle against the environment and this is impossible without egotistic as well as altruistic, aggressive as well as peaceful, instincts.

The Rabbinic view is, then, realistic. Human beings are engaged in a constant struggle against their propensity for evil but if they so desire they can keep it under control. The means of control are provided by the Torah and the precepts. One of the most remarkable Rabbinic passages in this connection states that the Torah is the antidote to the poison of the ‘evil inclination’ (Kiddushin 30b). The meaning appears to be that when the Torah is studied and when there is submission to its discipline, morbid guilt-feelings are banished and life is no longer clouded by the fear that the ‘evil inclination’ will bring about one's ruination. The parable told in this passage is of a king who struck his son, later urging the son to keep a plaster on the wound. While the plaster remains on the wound the prince may eat and drink whatever he desires without coming to harm. Only if the plaster is removed will the wound fester when the prince indulges his appetites. God has ‘wounded’ man by creating him with the ‘evil inclination’. But the Torah is the plaster on the wound, which prevents it from festering and enables him to embrace life without fear.

It follows that for the Rabbis the struggle against the ‘evil inclination’ is never-ending in this life. Nowhere in the Rabbinic literature is there the faintest suggestion that it is possible for humans permanently to destroy the ‘evil inclination’ in this life. (Eschatological references to the total destruction of the ‘evil inclination’, and its transformation into a ‘good angel’, are irrelevant. The World to Come is not the world in which humans struggle in the here and now.) For the Rabbis, the true hero is, as stated in Ethics of the Fathers (4. 1), one who ‘subdues’ his ‘evil inclination’, one who exercises severe self-control, refusing to yield to temptation. It is not given to anyone actually to slay the ‘evil inclination’. Nor are there references in the Rabbinic literature to the idea, prevalent in the Jewish mystical and moralistic literatures, of ‘breaking the evil inclination’.



"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 881 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2020 11:59 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 883 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2020 1:45 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16471
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 883 of 997 (879768)
07-22-2020 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 882 by Phat
07-22-2020 1:02 AM


Re: Yetzer Ha Tov & Yetzer Ha Ra
That seems a bit schizophrenic.

You need the lack of restraint to label the “evil inclination” “evil”, but if you include it the case for it’s necessity goes.

Does God have the “evil inclination”? If you go with the stronger arguments for it’s necessity then the answer must be yes. But does God have “ the sex instinct” or “physical appetites in general, aggressive emotions, and unbridled ambition”?

Another point of course, is if the “evil inclination” is only necessary in the world as it is now, why do we have the world as it is? That’s God’s choice, surely. If a better world is possible, why didn’t God make that one?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 882 by Phat, posted 07-22-2020 1:02 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 884 by Phat, posted 07-22-2020 12:13 PM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 884 of 997 (879771)
07-22-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 883 by PaulK
07-22-2020 1:45 AM


Its Relational...Not About Being Good
I recently heard a good apologetic podcast

quote:
There has been an interesting transition over the last several decades whereby many people seem to reject God not because they don't believe He exists, but rather because they believe that He is cruel and evil, demanding obedience to his tyrannical project. What can we say to someone who believes that God is primarily interested in making his creation toe the line? How do we respond to someone who believes God is saying, "Do things my way or I'll destroy you?" This week Vince and Jo discuss the nature of relationship with God and offer some helpful and gracious ways to question the questioner whose assumptions about God, Heaven, and Hell might not line up with what Scripture teaches and what Christians actually believe.

Question Asked in This Episode: "I am debating with a young person about God. She says if God is real, he is cruel, letting any of his children burn in Hell just because they don't want to do things his way, even if they are a good person. She says it's like a parent that tells his child, 'Do things my way or I'll destroy you.' I don't know how to handle this."



Transcript

And also...in answering your post:

Does God have the “evil inclination”? If you go with the stronger arguments for it’s necessity then the answer must be yes. But does God have “ the sex instinct” or “physical appetites in general, aggressive emotions, and unbridled ambition”?
It was my understanding that though God is aware of these traits, all of them being present in a rebellious nature, God does not "have them" in that God does not use them or need them. God is simply aware of evil. He allowed that "spirits" possibility in order to provide a fully free-willed decision process to those beings of His creation who did not fully trust Him and wanted to *know* more. Confusing?

Another point of course, is if the “evil inclination” is only necessary in the world as it is now, why do we have the world as it is? That’s God’s choice, surely. If a better world is possible, why didn’t God make that one?
The better world is already made and only awaits those who trust the authority and realize that a better world cannot exist for them through their own autonomy.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 883 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2020 1:45 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 885 by ringo, posted 07-22-2020 12:28 PM Phat has responded
 Message 886 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2020 12:33 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18511
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 885 of 997 (879773)
07-22-2020 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 884 by Phat
07-22-2020 12:13 PM


Re: Its Relational...Not About Being Good
Phat writes:

God is simply aware of evil.


But your own description of God is, "Creator of all that is, seen and unseen." Evil is seen and unseen.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 884 by Phat, posted 07-22-2020 12:13 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 887 by Phat, posted 07-22-2020 12:44 PM ringo has responded

  
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