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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 591
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 916 of 981 (880006)
07-27-2020 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 915 by Stile
07-27-2020 1:29 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
This is really the question of whether an all-knowing god knows everything about that god itself. If, as you say, God does not know all the choices we are going to make, then makes the universe, and only then can see the future of the universe, that means the god didn't know what kind of universe was going to be made and so was not all-knowing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 915 by Stile, posted 07-27-2020 1:29 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 917 by Stile, posted 07-28-2020 8:18 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3972
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 917 of 981 (880030)
07-28-2020 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 916 by Sarah Bellum
07-27-2020 5:14 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Sarah Bellum writes:

This is really the question of whether an all-knowing god knows everything about that god itself. If, as you say, God does not know all the choices we are going to make, then makes the universe, and only then can see the future of the universe, that means the god didn't know what kind of universe was going to be made and so was not all-knowing.

Right.
Except it doesn't really matter.

Most people when they say God is "all knowing" are talking about God knowing everything about this universe. Past, present, and future.

And, a God that didn't know such things before the universe existed, but does know all such things after the universe existed - is still "all-knowing" as far as that universe is concerned.

Since we live in the universe, and we are living at this current point in time - such a God would be "all knowing" for anything and everything about everyone - and we still all have free choice.

It's just difficult to add in all those details when discussing it all the time - so it's easier to shorten it to "all knowing."
Just as it easier to say gravity affect "everything."

Does it affect all things outside our universe? Maybe, maybe not - we don't know and can't say.
But, this doesn't stop us from saying gravity affects "everything" - because it's simple short-hand for a larger concept. The details can always be explained if someone's interested. It doesn't make the short-hand wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 916 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-27-2020 5:14 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 918 by PaulK, posted 07-28-2020 8:48 AM Stile has responded
 Message 921 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 10:19 AM Stile has responded
 Message 926 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-29-2020 10:02 AM Stile has responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 16454
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 918 of 981 (880032)
07-28-2020 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 917 by Stile
07-28-2020 8:18 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
I’d suggest that “all-knowing with regard to this universe after creating it” is a qualification to “all-knowing”, and one that would not generally be accepted.

Also, we have the question of interventions. If this “all-knowing” being intervenes in this universe when does it know the situation with regard to it’s decision, when does it know what that decision will be and when does it know the consequences. It can’t be all-knowing even with regard to this universe until it knows all three - for every intervention it will ever make in this universe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 917 by Stile, posted 07-28-2020 8:18 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 919 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 9:58 AM PaulK has not yet responded
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Phat
Member
Posts: 14272
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 919 of 981 (880036)
07-28-2020 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 918 by PaulK
07-28-2020 8:48 AM


What GOD Knows and What Humans Speculate
PaulK writes:

If this “all-knowing” being intervenes in this universe when does it know the situation with regard to it’s decision, when does it know what that decision will be and when does it know the consequences. It can’t be all-knowing even with regard to this universe until it knows all three - for every intervention it will ever make in this universe.


You know my basic belief-view. God created angelic beings first. There were, as far as we know, 3 arch-angels. These beings were given free will. God knew that there was being given a possibility of autonomy from Him. Sure enough, one out of three chose autonomy and took roughly a third of the regular angelic beings with him. This is when Monism became Dualism. God, in the Beginning, was a Trinitarian reality and yet a monastic (monotheistic) reality all along, but humans became aware of the personification(through Jesus) which some would label anthropomorphic seeing as how they would believe that humans imagined/created God anyway. Jesus actually created the angels(through Him all things were created) and thus created a free willed Lucifer who chose to rebel. Thus, Jesus was essentially before Adam, so when He is said to be the second Adam it is when He comes from Heaven to Earth. I know Tangle is simply shaking his head marveling at the crazy religious stuff that people make up, but through Jesus, God becomes real. Humans actually are given the possibility of Holy Communion with the Creator of all seen and unseen. As for all of the other religions, you can do with them what you choose. Choice--(through Dualism, which was the result of free will) is available for every human.

Now...some will argue that God could care less what we choose and loves us unconditionally anyway...and I wont challenge their belief. They have a right to it. The book does say that the third archangel will suffer a definite fate. Ostensibly so too will the 1/3 of the angels who chose that autonomous reality.

So lets get back to your question:

when does it know the situation with regard to it’s decision, when does it know what that decision will be and when does it know the consequences. It can’t be all-knowing even with regard to this universe until it knows all three...

  • When does God know the situation(past,present and future) in regards to its decision(to allow free will)? I say that God knew that Angels would be created and at some point knew that He would give them free will. Seeing how God Is past+present+future, "some point" means all points.
  • When does God *know* what that decision will be? Again, God knows all points in time. At least in regards to the angelic realm. We can discuss ultimate foreknowledge again, if anybody wants.
  • When does God *know* the consequences? At the point that we make them.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 918 by PaulK, posted 07-28-2020 8:48 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 920 by Tangle, posted 07-28-2020 10:05 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 922 by ringo, posted 07-28-2020 12:22 PM Phat has responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7794
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.7


    Message 920 of 981 (880038)
    07-28-2020 10:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 919 by Phat
    07-28-2020 9:58 AM


    Re: What GOD Knows and What Humans Speculate
    Phat writes:

    I know Tangle is simply shaking his head marveling at the crazy religious stuff that people make up,

    When you try to guess my mind you almost always get it dead wrong, but for once... Can you read that stuff again and not be simply embarrassed? I'm embarrassed for you.

    but through Jesus, God becomes real.

    Evidentially untrue. Unless what you think is happening only inside your own head is real to anybody else.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 919 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 9:58 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14272
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 921 of 981 (880039)
    07-28-2020 10:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 917 by Stile
    07-28-2020 8:18 AM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    Stile writes:

    Most people when they say God is "all knowing" are talking about God knowing everything about this universe. Past, present, and future.

    And, a God that didn't know such things before the universe existed, but does know all such things after the universe existed - is still "all-knowing" as far as that universe is concerned.

    Keep in mind the timelines.
    God is eternal...no timeline.
    The universe may or may not be eternal. Hawking may argue differently than Augustine.
    Humans most definitely have a timeline.

    So lets rephrase your statement.

    Stiles statement rephrased writes:

    And, a God that didn't know humans before the humans existed, but does know all people after they are born - is still "all-knowing" as far as that group of humans is concerned.

    Look at Revelation.

    Rev 1:1 writes:

    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

    Both Jesus and God are aware of all points in time...being eternal. In fract, hypothetically they are aware of any other points outside of time, should such points exist. Once Jesus becomes human, (born) He is subject to time. Thus God gives Jesus a revelation *in time*.
    Rev 1:4-5 writes:

    Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

    Thus God was, is, and is to come. Eternal. At every point in time(and out of time as well, hypothetically)
    Rev 1:8-11 writes:

    8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

    9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

    Thus John reveals the Christian Trinitarian concept of GOD Eternal and Jesus Christ interacting with humanity.
    Rev 1:17-18 writes:

    17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

    This is God the Son talking. God the Father never died. And technically, since Jesus has not yet returned bodily, the One who is speaking through John, through Revelation TO whosoever has an ear is the Holy Spirit.

    One more thing I got from Revelation:

    Rev 17:7-8 writes:

    7 Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

    Once Was(not always was) Now is Not(because there is One Spirit and One God) and yet will come. (Antichrist? One can see it how they choose. The Bible is written for whosoever. Its not for everyone.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 917 by Stile, posted 07-28-2020 8:18 AM Stile has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 928 by Stile, posted 07-29-2020 10:20 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18492
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 922 of 981 (880048)
    07-28-2020 12:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 919 by Phat
    07-28-2020 9:58 AM


    Re: What GOD Knows and What Humans Speculate
    Phat writes:

    When does God *know* the consequences? At the point that we make them.


    That's not omniscience. That's observation.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 919 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 9:58 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 923 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 1:58 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14272
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 923 of 981 (880053)
    07-28-2020 1:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 922 by ringo
    07-28-2020 12:22 PM


    Re: What GOD Knows and What Humans Speculate
    Nonsense. If God was all-knowing yet you had not yet made a decision in time, how could God foreknow what your decision would be? Granted God the Father is not bound by time, but God the Son is the first and the last. You are included somewhere in that spectrum.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 922 by ringo, posted 07-28-2020 12:22 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 924 by ringo, posted 07-28-2020 5:09 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18492
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 924 of 981 (880057)
    07-28-2020 5:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 923 by Phat
    07-28-2020 1:58 PM


    Re: What GOD Knows and What Humans Speculate
    Phat writes:

    If God was all-knowing yet you had not yet made a decision in time, how could God foreknow what your decision would be?


    That's what omniscient means. If He doesn't know what our decision is going to be, he's just observing it like anybody else.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 923 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 1:58 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 925 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 11:57 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14272
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 925 of 981 (880069)
    07-28-2020 11:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 924 by ringo
    07-28-2020 5:09 PM


    Re: What GOD Knows and What Humans Speculate
    But if He DOES know what you will decide you are little more than a robot. I believe that God chose to be an observer. It is enough that He knew that you would have a choice.

    Another way that I look at it is this: The only way that God can be experienced somewhat objectively by humans is through other humans. If my theory is correct that there are spirits, "vibes" or impressions/perceptions that encompass the human definition of "spirituality" then the only objective way that this could be confirmed is through other humans. Even jar would likely ask me how did I know it was God if i heard a voice speak to me some day. As would you. And to be fair, you likely will bring up the idea that humans can be deceived, "tricked" or bamboozled en mass.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 924 by ringo, posted 07-28-2020 5:09 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 932 by ringo, posted 07-29-2020 12:58 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Sarah Bellum
    Member
    Posts: 591
    Joined: 05-04-2019
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 926 of 981 (880083)
    07-29-2020 10:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 917 by Stile
    07-28-2020 8:18 AM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    quote:
    a God that didn't know such things before the universe existed, but does know all such things after the universe existed
    But if a god creates a universe how is it possible the god doesn't know all the details a minute before it is created but does know the details a minute after it is created?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 917 by Stile, posted 07-28-2020 8:18 AM Stile has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 929 by Stile, posted 07-29-2020 10:27 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 3972
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 927 of 981 (880084)
    07-29-2020 10:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 918 by PaulK
    07-28-2020 8:48 AM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    PaulK writes:

    I’d suggest that “all-knowing with regard to this universe after creating it” is a qualification to “all-knowing”, and one that would not generally be accepted.

    I would suggest that it would easily be accepted by anyone who wants God's "all-knowing-ness" to be logically possible.
    And that it would not easily be accepted by anyone who wants God's "all-knowing-ness" to be logically impossible.

    The fact is, it is a logical possibility (as much as "knowing the future" is logically possible...)
    And it's certainly reasonable to label it as "all-knowing."

    Anyone's acceptance of it is up to them.

    Also, we have the question of interventions. If this “all-knowing” being intervenes in this universe when does it know the situation with regard to it’s decision, when does it know what that decision will be and when does it know the consequences. It can’t be all-knowing even with regard to this universe until it knows all three - for every intervention it will ever make in this universe.

    Such conundrums exist for any imaginary idea around the issues of "knowing the future" or "time-travel."
    -what are the limits?
    -is any of it really possible?

    I think the scientific answer is, currently, "such ideas are not possible" in the first place - so it doesn't make much scientific sense in musing about what-ifs.

    However, if we're going to have a thought-exercise around the idea that God could have the power to "see the future" and then ask if this means it takes away our "free choice" (which also has it's own scientific-sense issues...) then the above conclusion is reasonable based within that framework.

    Edited by Stile, : Clarity


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 918 by PaulK, posted 07-28-2020 8:48 AM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 931 by PaulK, posted 07-29-2020 11:57 AM Stile has responded

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 3972
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 928 of 981 (880085)
    07-29-2020 10:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 921 by Phat
    07-28-2020 10:19 AM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    Phat writes:

    Look at Revelation.

    Eh. I'd rather not.

    I'll go as far as to say that imagining the possibility of a being that is "all-knowing" does not necessarily remove the ability for humans to have free-choice.

    But I'm not going to consider that such a thing is actually real.
    And I'm certainly not going to consider that Revelations actually has "useful knowledge" to impart onto this subject.

    Well... technically I did consider them... years and years ago... but the Bible (and certainly Revelations) has proven themselves to be so full of holes and mistakes and wrong-ness and inaccuracies... they are known to be useless for "providing insight" about functional reality.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 921 by Phat, posted 07-28-2020 10:19 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 3972
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 929 of 981 (880086)
    07-29-2020 10:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 926 by Sarah Bellum
    07-29-2020 10:02 AM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    Sarah Bellum writes:

    But if a god creates a universe how is it possible the god doesn't know all the details a minute before it is created but does know the details a minute after it is created?

    I suppose that would depend upon what the god is capable of.

    My claim is that "it is possible for there to be a being that creates the universe, is all-knowing, and us humans within that universe still have free-choice."
    And I think I've explained how that's possible.

    My answer to you would be that this god would be all-knowing about everything within the universe he created - and therefore, to us within the universe, this god is "all-knowing."

    This does not require the same god to be "all-knowing" outside of our universe that he created.
    Although, whether this god is not all-knowing outside of our universe by a limitation that he's not powerful enough... or possibly because of his own choice (he's powerful enough to limit his own all-knowing-ness for a moment in order to create a universe where free-choice exists...)... would be a question on this god's power abilities.

    My claim of "it is possible for there to be a being that creates the universe, is all-knowing, and us humans within that universe still have free-choice" would be fine with either version of the god.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 926 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-29-2020 10:02 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 930 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-29-2020 11:43 AM Stile has responded

      
    Sarah Bellum
    Member
    Posts: 591
    Joined: 05-04-2019
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 930 of 981 (880088)
    07-29-2020 11:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 929 by Stile
    07-29-2020 10:27 AM


    Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
    But
    quote:
    it is possible for there to be a being that creates the universe, is all-knowing, and us humans within that universe still have free-choice
    encompasses a contradiction. If I create something, whether is is building a machine or writing a computer program or planting a garden, I don't know all the details. Even with the computer program I can't foresee such things as power surges that might change the program's output. Because I don't have enough knowledge about the situation.

    When you say we humans have free-choice you're thinking of a god in that situation, perhaps like a parent who sends a child out into the world and cannot predict what their child will do.

    But an all-knowing god does have enough knowledge about the situation. Such a god could take out a piece of paper (either a minute before, or a minute after creating the universe) and write down, in detail, what choices you will make on 29 July, 2020 and give the reasons, down to the chemical reactions in the brain that result in the words you say and the direction you turn your footsteps.

    How can you say you have free-choice any more than water flowing down a slope in the grip of gravity chooses to run downhill?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 929 by Stile, posted 07-29-2020 10:27 AM Stile has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 933 by Stile, posted 07-29-2020 1:31 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

      
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