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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18390
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1141 of 1444 (881217)
08-20-2020 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1133 by jar
08-19-2020 2:17 PM


Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
...according to the definition of evil that is common throughout modern civilization creating a living being knowing that being will be damned throughout eternity is evil.
  • Do humans define God? Is it possible that God exists apart from human definition?
  • Why is it that the apologists of necessity market a false God? What characteristics make this God false? And if so, by what method can we determine what God is actually like?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1133 by jar, posted 08-19-2020 2:17 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1142 by Juvenissun, posted 08-20-2020 7:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 1143 by Juvenissun, posted 08-20-2020 7:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 1145 by jar, posted 08-20-2020 7:53 AM Phat has replied

      
    Juvenissun
    Member (Idle past 1397 days)
    Posts: 332
    Joined: 07-25-2020


    Message 1142 of 1444 (881220)
    08-20-2020 7:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 1141 by Phat
    08-20-2020 3:23 AM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    Do humans define God? Is it possible that God exists apart from human definition?
    Good questions. Both are possible.
    For non-Christian gods, they are defined by human.
    For Christian God, God is "understood" by human through human wisdom and the Bible. We put those understanding together and organized it by logic, then we present the most likely definition of God.
    In Christianity, to have (not to create) a definition of God (i.e. to know who is God) is the first step to discuss and to understand anything else in the Bible. This may not be true for other religions.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1141 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 3:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Juvenissun
    Member (Idle past 1397 days)
    Posts: 332
    Joined: 07-25-2020


    Message 1143 of 1444 (881221)
    08-20-2020 7:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 1141 by Phat
    08-20-2020 3:23 AM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    What characteristics make this God false?
    I guess only Christians can ask a good question like this.
    A god is false when the theology about that god is incomplete and is logically flawed.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1141 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 3:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 34065
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 1144 of 1444 (881222)
    08-20-2020 7:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 1138 by Juvenissun
    08-19-2020 9:38 PM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    Go away kid. Back to the small table.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1138 by Juvenissun, posted 08-19-2020 9:38 PM Juvenissun has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1164 by Juvenissun, posted 08-20-2020 5:42 PM jar has replied

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 34065
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 4.0


    (1)
    Message 1145 of 1444 (881223)
    08-20-2020 7:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 1141 by Phat
    08-20-2020 3:23 AM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    Phat writes:
    Do humans define God? Is it possible that God exists apart from human definition?
    Yes, of course any and every god humans can discuss is created by humans and only exits in the minds of humans.
    Phat writes:
    Why is it that the apologists of necessity market a false God?
    Because it is easy and profitable and gives them a feeling of power. Also because they simply don't know how to think and never acknowledge the utter silliness and contradictions built into the god they market.
    Phat writes:
    What characteristics make this God false?
    The fact that they market an omniscient creator of all that is seen and unseen who also judges creation and rewards or punishes that creation.
    Phat writes:
    And if so, by what method can we determine what God is actually like?
    Short of dying I cannot see any possible way and all the evidence supports the fact that no one has ever done so.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1141 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 3:23 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1147 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 10:18 AM jar has replied
     Message 1150 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 10:28 AM jar has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 501 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    (1)
    Message 1146 of 1444 (881226)
    08-20-2020 9:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 1140 by Juvenissun
    08-19-2020 9:55 PM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    Juvenissun writes:
    God must be omniscient. Otherwise, it is not a qualified god and is not God.
    As I said, your argument is with Phat, not me. He's trying to remove omniscience from God to remove God's responsibility.
    Juvenissun writes:
    You can not use free will issue to deny God.
    But you can use it to demonstrate that God is evil.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1140 by Juvenissun, posted 08-19-2020 9:55 PM Juvenissun has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1148 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 10:19 AM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1147 of 1444 (881228)
    08-20-2020 10:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 1145 by jar
    08-20-2020 7:53 AM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    I respect your honesty. I disagree with your assertion that God can never be known yet there is no way that I can describe to you how I feel it is possible in my own life. About all I can do is keep chatting with you guys and not spend too much time isolated with my computer and not actually out making a difference.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1145 by jar, posted 08-20-2020 7:53 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1149 by jar, posted 08-20-2020 10:26 AM Phat has replied
     Message 1154 by Tangle, posted 08-20-2020 11:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1148 of 1444 (881229)
    08-20-2020 10:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 1146 by ringo
    08-20-2020 9:02 AM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    ringo writes:
    He's trying to remove omniscience from God to remove God's responsibility.
    How silly! If God is omniscient there is little I can do about it....and if He is a fig newton of human imagination I sure am fooled!

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1146 by ringo, posted 08-20-2020 9:02 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1155 by ringo, posted 08-20-2020 12:21 PM Phat has replied

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 34065
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 1149 of 1444 (881230)
    08-20-2020 10:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 1147 by Phat
    08-20-2020 10:18 AM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    Phat writes:
    I disagree with your assertion that God can never be known yet there is no way that I can describe to you how I feel it is possible in my own life.
    How does the way you feel differ from the way the Mulim feels about Allah or the Hindi feels about Ganesh or the Buddhist feels about Buddha or the Satanist feels about Satan or ...

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1147 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 10:18 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1151 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 10:31 AM jar has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1150 of 1444 (881231)
    08-20-2020 10:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 1145 by jar
    08-20-2020 7:53 AM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    jar writes:
    ..The fact that they market an omniscient creator of all that is seen and unseen who also judges creation and rewards or punishes that creation.
    Woah. Full Stop.
    Does not Matthew 25 imply such a judgement?
    You guys argue that God must be evil, yet you describe evil as a human derived condition. This is why i believe in a Spiritual war of sorts. We are talking about two spirits. One is the Holy Spirit Creator of all seen and unseen. The other is the Angel Who Would Be King. We have no real way of knowing if we will be judged, how we will be judged, and if there is anything that can be done to pardon such behavior. We have no basis on which to judge God as evil unless and until we actually know Him.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1145 by jar, posted 08-20-2020 7:53 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1152 by jar, posted 08-20-2020 10:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18390
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 1151 of 1444 (881232)
    08-20-2020 10:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 1149 by jar
    08-20-2020 10:26 AM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    jar writes:
    How does the way you feel differ from the way the Muslim feels about Allah or the Hindi feels about Ganesh or the Buddhist feels about Buddha or the Satanist feels about Satan or ...
    Until I walk a mile in another mans shoes I have no clue about how his feet feel. Likewise, I have no way of knowing how each of these hypothetical people relate to their concept of a power greater than themselves who is God to them. Really, I feel called only to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. I can give insights, but I cant do the job for anyone else.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
    The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1149 by jar, posted 08-20-2020 10:26 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1153 by jar, posted 08-20-2020 10:57 AM Phat has replied

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 34065
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 1152 of 1444 (881233)
    08-20-2020 10:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 1150 by Phat
    08-20-2020 10:28 AM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    You really really can't read can you or is it that you really really don't want to read.
    We can certainly judge the god you and the Apologists market and that is what I and the others have been explaining to you if, and only if, you actually read and comprehend what is being explained to you.
    The issue is not with any judgement, it is with the very act of creation. The god you and the Apologists try to market has been judged and found wanting long before Matthew 25.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1150 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 10:28 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 34065
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 1153 of 1444 (881234)
    08-20-2020 10:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 1151 by Phat
    08-20-2020 10:31 AM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    Once again you simply refuse to think about what is said to you and respond with sillies.
    Each of the others mentioned make the very same claims about the god they market as you make about your creation.
    What makes your feelings valid?

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1151 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 10:31 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1156 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 2:35 PM jar has replied

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 9533
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.8


    (1)
    Message 1154 of 1444 (881236)
    08-20-2020 11:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 1147 by Phat
    08-20-2020 10:18 AM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    Phat writes:
    I disagree with your assertion that God can never be known
    There are only three ways of finding out about this god of yours
    1. Personal revelation. This is delusional but you and many others believe it. The major problem with it as far as evidence goes is that it's personal to you so meaningless to others and that the revelations differ between individuals indicating their personal manufacture - we make the god we want to believe in. (Hence your rejection of much of Jesus's message.)
    2. The Bible. The source of ALL information. The multitude of problem with this as a source of factual 'truth' have been discussed to death here. But it's all you have.
    3. Other people. Priests, apologists, bloggers, everyman and his dog. All these people derive their opinions from 1 or 2 above so are the worst possible source - third hand 'knowledge' from people with no more information than yourself applying their own prejudices to the message.
    there is no way that I can describe to you how I feel it is possible in my own life.
    You don't have to, many of us have experienced it for ourselves. You're not special Phat.

    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1147 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 10:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 501 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 1155 of 1444 (881237)
    08-20-2020 12:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 1148 by Phat
    08-20-2020 10:19 AM


    Re: Is This How You Treated Each Other On The Porch Discussions?
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    He's trying to remove omniscience from God to remove God's responsibility.
    How silly!
    Nothing silly about it. You have been trying to argue for months that God is not responsible for "our decisions" and you have been shown many times that if He is omniscient and irresponsible, He must be evil.
    Phat writes:
    If God is omniscient there is little I can do about it...
    It has nothing to do with what YOU can do about it. It's about what GOD can do about it.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1148 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 10:19 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1158 by Phat, posted 08-20-2020 3:08 PM ringo has replied

      
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