Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 83 (9005 total)
41 online now:
AZPaul3, DrJones*, Pollux (3 members, 38 visitors)
Newest Member: kanthesh
Post Volume: Total: 881,107 Year: 12,855/23,288 Month: 580/1,527 Week: 19/240 Day: 19/17 Hour: 1/0

Announcements: Topic abandonment warning (read and/or suffer the consequences)


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 14597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1261 of 1325 (881568)
08-25-2020 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1259 by jar
08-25-2020 2:08 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
It is sad to read what you and ringo market, but I will attempt yet again to share my position. Understand that I cannot provide the evidence that critically thinking scientists require, but the critical thinking scientists such as Dr.John Lennox did not arrive at their belief through the scientific method. That is simply a silly assumption.
jar writes:

The evidence that the Bible is simply a human creation and filled with errors, impossibilities, fantasy, contradictions and evolving folk tales is overwhelming.

Impossibilities? With God all things are possible. God is no magic genie, however.

Understand, I am a Cradle Creedal Christian raised in a Christian family, educated in a Christian School and a member of a recognized Christian Church.
Your credentials are unimpressive to me. You are not a proponent or advocate for Christianity. What you have done is attempted to hijack the belief and redefine what being a Christian really is. If everyone listened to you and actually did what you advocate, the world would be a better place only if God agreed that Jesus was unnecessary to be in communion with, adored, and lifted up. Humanism would be the ultimate societal state of affairs and we could throw God away as a species...evolving beyond the "bronze-age beliefs, as Tangle also advocates.

I have no problem with you or any of the Evangelicals believing the nonsense you try to market but I certainly can only laugh when you claim any of it is evidence of anything more than your beliefs.
When you meet the Jesus whom you advocate throwing away some day, you hopefully will laugh and realize that God played a giant joke on your intellect. You more likely will weep when you realize that the judge will have perfect knowledge of everything you have done and have taught. I will put in a good word for you, however...as if my good words would carry any weight!

However should someone actually show up with evidence or even a reasoned argument then certainly I might be persuaded to reevaluate my position.
Tangle asks me why I stay around this place. The best answer that I can come up with is that I care about my arguments and about the people here at EvC who read them and challenge me on them. Iron sharpens iron.

jar writes:

No god ever imagined has ever been a true explanation of anything.

I am asssuming that you imply the same thing about Jesus Christ. We believe that He is God.
If "through Him all things were created" then that explains a lot about where things came from and is certainly a better explanation than Dr.Hawkings. I will agree wwith you that many apologists are at best lazy and at worst deceitful in what they sell. I like to think of myself as a Thinking Apologist, but I wont simply throw apologetics away.

jar writes:

That's the only world that exists; there is zero evidence that "spirit" exists and overwhelming evidence that all the religious spirit is simply fantasy.

Evidence is not the only tool that one can use to arrive at a reasonable belief.

ringo writes:

As I have told you before, you should assume that I have had the same experiences as you.

The difference is that you have interpreted them incorrectly. You use the believe-everything-the-apologists-tell-you method. I use the nothing-is-true-without-good-reason method.

And thus you never saw any good reason why God (through Jesus Christ) was real? OK got it. That explains a lot. Juvenissun take note. And by the way, I dont learn what I believe through apologists. I learn my beliefs through the Holy Spirit living in me.

ringo writes:

I see things all the time that I can't explain. I don't assume that nobody can explain them.

What you see is not "unexplained". See Tangle's explanation. The problem is that you reject the explanation.

The problem is that you assume that your explanation is the explanation. I make the same assumption, except the God I market is the absolute truth. That all gods described by humans being equally valid is a lie.

ringo writes:

...And your anything is no different from anybody else's anything.

You dont know that.
Juvenissun writes:

Evidences on faith is personal. I see evidences, and I try to share it with you. If you do not see, that is too bad. It is your loss, not mine. I see everything you see, but you do not see the most important thing I see.

The most important thing is Jesus Christ. Failure to see that makes the whole Bible just another book of ancient myths and literature.

jar writes:

The creation alleged in the beginning in the Genesis 1 myth.

If it did not start with God, it started with your own ego and that of every other socratic critically thinking master who is(are) blind.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1259 by jar, posted 08-25-2020 2:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1263 by jar, posted 08-25-2020 3:17 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7911
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1262 of 1325 (881569)
08-25-2020 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1260 by Stile
08-25-2020 2:53 PM


Stile writes:

But none of these things indicate that I do not "have this thing we call freewill."

Not much point mentioning them then.

I may not be able to do any of the things above, due to the constraints upon my freewill.

With the exception of killing the baby, you are not able to do those things at all, ever. They are not humanly possible. It is not your alleged freewill that prevents you, it's physics.

Sure - empathy is one of the many, many things that constrains (to varying degrees) my ability to choose "whatever I want."

So you accept that your freewill is limited. Ok.

If I mis-understood you, and you just meant that constraints exist upon our freewill, even though we still have freewill...

Then I absolutely agree.

Well nearly. I actually say that because our freewill is bounded by all sorts of constraints, some simply internal, we do not actually have freewill in the religious sense at all. It's simply another religious fiction. Our ability to choose between good and evil is not entirely possible.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1260 by Stile, posted 08-25-2020 2:53 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1264 by Stile, posted 08-25-2020 4:05 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 1269 by Juvenissun, posted 08-26-2020 6:51 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32915
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1263 of 1325 (881571)
08-25-2020 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1261 by Phat
08-25-2020 3:10 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
Phat writes:

jar writes:

The creation alleged in the beginning in the Genesis 1 myth.

If it did not start with God, it started with your own ego and that of every other socratic critically thinking master who is(are) blind.

Phat, there is evidence of the universes beginning and of the beginning of life her on Earths and the evidence refutes the Just So story that is told in genesis 1.

Stop denying what can be seen and tested and verified only to embrace the fantasy.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1261 by Phat, posted 08-25-2020 3:10 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1264 of 1325 (881576)
08-25-2020 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1262 by Tangle
08-25-2020 3:16 PM


Tangle writes:

With the exception of killing the baby, you are not able to do those things at all, ever. They are not humanly possible. It is not your alleged freewill that prevents you, it's physics.

You're still misrepresenting yourself.

I can kill a baby.
What I can't do - is "kill a baby without feeling (lots of) remorse."
But I still have freewill to choose to kill a baby.

Just as I can take out the trash.
What I can't do - is "take out the trash without feeling (a little) remorse."
But I still have freewill to choose to take out the trash.

Empathy does not "prevent me" from killing a baby or taking out the trash.
It only "prevents me" from doing them without any feeling of remorse.

But "feeling remorse" doesn't "remove freewill."

Because I can still choose to kill a baby or take out the trash.

I wasn't comparing "killing a baby" to "ignoring gravity."
You moved the goalposts to "killing a baby without feeling remorse."
So I then compared "killing a baby without feeling remorse" to "ignoring gravity" - and neither of these "constraints" remove my ability to have free will.
I can still kill a baby.

I actually say that because our freewill is bounded by all sorts of constraints, some simply internal, we do not actually have freewill in the religious sense at all. It's simply another religious fiction. Our ability to choose between good and evil is not entirely possible.

I think I still don't understand what you're getting at.

I can't choose to "kill a baby without feeling remorse."
But I can choose to "kill a baby."

Since, to me, "killing a baby" (while feeling remorse or not) is evil... and "not killing the baby" would be good... I am choosing good over evil by choosing to not kill babies, even though I could (the feelings or remorse I would have are irrelevant to the action being evil - to me.)

I suspect this is a difference in how I think of freewill/choices/good-evil and you-think-religions-think about freewill/choices/good-evil.

Without understanding, specifically, what you mean by "religious sense of freewill" and "choosing between good and evil" - I can no longer comment.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1262 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2020 3:16 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1265 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2020 4:26 PM Stile has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7911
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1265 of 1325 (881577)
08-25-2020 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1264 by Stile
08-25-2020 4:05 PM


Stile writes:

I can't choose to "kill a baby without feeling remorse."
But I can choose to "kill a baby."

I don't believe that you could actually kill a baby just because you wanted to, or to prove that you could.

The odds are against you being a psychopath and even further against you being the kind that kills.

So unless you want to tell me that you are a psychopath, I saying that you, like most of us can't just kill babies on a whim.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1264 by Stile, posted 08-25-2020 4:05 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1266 by Stile, posted 08-26-2020 12:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 1268 by Juvenissun, posted 08-26-2020 6:46 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1266 of 1325 (881616)
08-26-2020 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1265 by Tangle
08-25-2020 4:26 PM


Tangle writes:

I don't believe that you could actually kill a baby just because you wanted to, or to prove that you could.

Your belief is as good as anyone's belief that the world is flat, or that The Flood occurred 5000 years ago.

My belief is that I could kill a baby just because I wanted to, or prove that I could - but I choose not to.

And the (currently available, but incomplete on the subject) evidence is on my side:

-people are capable of doing things they've never done before
-people are capable of doing things they regret, even if they know they will regret them beforehand
-killing a baby is well within my "physical ability" as a human

The odds are against you being a psychopath and even further against you being the kind that kills.

You're talking about the difference between not being able to do something, and choosing not to do something.

For some reason, against the evidence, you've decided that the answer is "you can't possibly do it."
Why would you pick that?

So unless you want to tell me that you are a psychopath, I saying that you, like most of us can't just kill babies on a whim.

I am not a psychopath.
I could kill a baby on a whim.
I simply choose not to do so.

Edited by Stile, : Spelling and grammar and forgotten words


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1265 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2020 4:26 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Juvenissun
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1267 of 1325 (881645)
08-26-2020 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1259 by jar
08-25-2020 2:08 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
The creation alleged in the beginning in the Genesis 1 myth.

Do you know how much scientific information is given by the first three words (In the beginning ...) of Gen 1:1

Based only on that three words, you SHOULD believe in this God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1259 by jar, posted 08-25-2020 2:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1270 by jar, posted 08-26-2020 7:25 PM Juvenissun has responded

  
Juvenissun
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1268 of 1325 (881646)
08-26-2020 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1265 by Tangle
08-25-2020 4:26 PM


I don't believe that you could actually kill a baby just because you wanted to, or to prove that you could.

It depends on two definitions: kill and baby.
If defined properly, anyone can do it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1265 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2020 4:26 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Juvenissun
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1269 of 1325 (881647)
08-26-2020 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1262 by Tangle
08-25-2020 3:16 PM


Well nearly. I actually say that because our freewill is bounded by all sorts of constraints, some simply internal, we do not actually have freewill in the religious sense at all. It's simply another religious fiction. Our ability to choose between good and evil is not entirely possible.

If we do not have free will, then there is no need for Christianity. Or, more precisely, there is no Christianity.

The free will in Christianity is demonstrated way back to Gen 2:16. Gen 2:17 is even more clear on that.

Edited by Juvenissun, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1262 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2020 3:16 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1272 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 8:58 AM Juvenissun has responded
 Message 1280 by Stile, posted 08-27-2020 1:11 PM Juvenissun has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32915
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1270 of 1325 (881649)
08-26-2020 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1267 by Juvenissun
08-26-2020 6:43 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
No scientific information is given in any of Genesis 1.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1267 by Juvenissun, posted 08-26-2020 6:43 PM Juvenissun has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1271 by Juvenissun, posted 08-27-2020 8:52 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Juvenissun
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1271 of 1325 (881663)
08-27-2020 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1270 by jar
08-26-2020 7:25 PM


Re: Critical Thinkers vs Apologetics
No scientific information is given in any of Genesis 1.

I guess you do not care about any scientific knowledge. You are a blessed person.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1270 by jar, posted 08-26-2020 7:25 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1272 of 1325 (881664)
08-27-2020 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1269 by Juvenissun
08-26-2020 6:51 PM


God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Juvenissun writes:

If we do not have free will, then there is no need for Christianity. Or, more precisely, there is no Christianity.

Don't tell them that! It only supports their belief that it was all made up! You are throwing the Holy Baby out with the bathwater. In regards to free will, it is a basis for your and my belief, but i'm not sure what old jar has to say about it except that he defends the rationale that God if God exists could not reasonably foreknow everything without being a God that should be opposed and rejected.

jars basic argument is that humans invent our ideas, beliefs, and concepts about GOD. He basically affirms that Christians may well all agree that GOD exists but that Christianity splits apart philosophically as we humans attempt to describe what Christianity is. (And WHO or WHAT GOD is.)


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1269 by Juvenissun, posted 08-26-2020 6:51 PM Juvenissun has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1273 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 9:10 AM Phat has responded
 Message 1278 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 12:49 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1284 by Juvenissun, posted 08-27-2020 5:23 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32915
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1273 of 1325 (881665)
08-27-2020 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1272 by Phat
08-27-2020 8:58 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
You really gotta stop misrepresenting what I say Phat.

Phat writes:

In regards to free will, it is a basis for your and my belief, but i'm not sure what old jar has to say about it except that he defends the rationale that God if God exists could not reasonably foreknow everything without being a God that should be opposed and rejected.

No Phat, that is not what I say.

Go back and read what I actually post, what is actually written.

Phat writes:

jars basic argument is that humans invent our ideas, beliefs, and concepts about GOD.

No Phat, that is not the argument but rather the conclusion based on all of the evidence I have provided you over the decades .

Do not continue misrepresenting what I do say.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1272 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 8:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1274 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 9:29 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1274 of 1325 (881667)
08-27-2020 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1273 by jar
08-27-2020 9:10 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
jar writes:

Phat, there is evidence of the universes beginning and of the beginning of life her on Earths and the evidence refutes the Just So story that is told in genesis 1.
Stop denying what can be seen and tested and verified only to embrace the fantasy.

I attempt to separate the fantasy from the actuality. Do you respect the Book of Job?

Remember how you always state that humans are charged to correct God? What do you think about the comment from Eliphaz the Temanite? (Job 4:1)

Also note what God says to Job. Can you imagine God saying anything similar to you?

Job 38:2-4 writes:

"Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

Do you believe that GOD ever speaks to humanity through the Bible or do you believe that human interpretation of what God might say are all that we really have?

jar writes:

Do not continue misrepresenting what I do say.

What are you gonna do? Smite me? You misrepresent what I say all the time. If you cant hang on the porch, go back inside.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1273 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 9:10 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1275 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 9:47 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32915
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1275 of 1325 (881669)
08-27-2020 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1274 by Phat
08-27-2020 9:29 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Phat writes:

I attempt to separate the fantasy from the actuality. Do you respect the Book of Job?

Remember how you always state that humans are charged to correct God? What do you think about the comment from Eliphaz the Temanite? (Job 4:1)

Also note what God says to Job. Can you imagine God saying anything similar to you?

That is simply not rue Phat. You never even consider any actuality.

The Bible stories are filled with contradictions, falsehoods, ambiguity and fantasy Phat. The issue is that you like to pick just the parts that you like and deny those that get your panties in a wad.

Phat writes:

Do you believe that GOD ever speaks to humanity through the Bible or do you believe that human interpretation of what God might say are all that we really have?

ALL of the evidence supports the latter as a correct conclusion.

Phat writes:

What are you gonna do? Smite me? You misrepresent what I say all the time. If you cant hang on the porch, go back inside.

I will continue to point out every time you misrepresent what I say and also every time you refuse to address the issues raised and just palm the pea.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1274 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 9:29 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1276 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 11:37 AM jar has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020