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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 14597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1276 of 1325 (881670)
08-27-2020 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1275 by jar
08-27-2020 9:47 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
I palm no pea. There is no reason to do so.

jar writes:

None of us think that Logic or evidence ever created anything.

.

Note: Message 1263

jar writes:

Phat, there is evidence of the universes beginning and of the beginning of life here on Earths and the evidence refutes the Just So story that is told in genesis 1.


So what does your precious evidence say about the origin of the universe?( And the whole marketing claim that Genesis was a Just-So story is entirely your gimmick. ) And it certainly hurts your claim that you are a believer.

One could rightly ask just what it is that you believe in. As you explain this to us, keep in mind that your belief is essentially what *you* market....either explicitly or implicitly. In fact, I will help you to explain it to us through what you have said before. Feel free to elaborate. Message 1

Jars Belief Statement writes:

In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth.

GOD looked on what he had created and found it was Good.

Through a gift from GOD mankind was given the ability to know what is right from what is wrong.

GOD charges us to try to do Right, and to try not to do Wrong.

GOD is not cruel.

We are not condemned.

GOD chose ALL people.

We will be judged based on our own behavior.

So explain why God would choose all people? Where does Hitler fit in? Pol Pot? You seem harder on the goats whom you believe will be mainly Christians than you are on them!
jar writes:

I don't understand the difficulty some folk have with the idea of being judged. What else could there be? And who better to understand whether or not we tried to do what is right and to not do what is wrong than GOD? I doubt it will be a court of LAW but rather of Justice.


jar writes:

GOD, like the rest of my family was simply always there. She is not someone that I met one day, but like mother and father, sister and brother, aunt and uncle, grandfather and grandmother, part of the family, there, real, personal, intimate and pervasive. But just as with understanding your father and mother, my understanding of GOD changed with time.

Hopefully it is still changing.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1275 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 9:47 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1277 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 12:11 PM Phat has responded
 Message 1279 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 12:57 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32915
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1277 of 1325 (881672)
08-27-2020 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1276 by Phat
08-27-2020 11:37 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Phat writes:

So what does your precious evidence say about the origin of the universe?( And the whole marketing claim that Genesis was a Just-So story is entirely your gimmick. ) And it certainly hurts your claim that you are a believer.

Stop being intentionally stupid Phat.

The evidence says we can't say anything about the beginning of the universe so far.

And Phat, I am not so dumb as to confuse beliefs with knowledge.

Phat writes:

So explain why God would choose all people? Where does Hitler fit in? Pol Pot? You seem harder on the goats whom you believe will be mainly Christians than you are on them!

Stop being intentionally stupid Phat.

Read what I actually wrote. How is it possible that you can quote what I say yet demonstrate that you did not even READ what you quoted?

Read what was actually written Phat and then underline where I actually answered your questions in what you quoted.

Based on what I quoted, where would Hitler (a Christian by the way) and Pol Pot fit in?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1276 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 11:37 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1281 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 3:04 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18755
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1278 of 1325 (881680)
08-27-2020 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1272 by Phat
08-27-2020 8:58 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Phat writes:

You are throwing the Holy Baby out with the bathwater.


Stop using that silly metaphor. We've been through it. There is no baby in the bathwater.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1272 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 8:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18755
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 1279 of 1325 (881683)
08-27-2020 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1276 by Phat
08-27-2020 11:37 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Phat writes:

So explain why God would choose all people?


1. Why should anybody have to explain God's choices to you?

2. Why should God's choices make sense to you?

3. Why don't you ask Him yourself during your "communion"?

4. Why would He only choose only the apologists and you?

5. Why don't you answer the questions people ask you?


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1276 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 11:37 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1282 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 3:10 PM ringo has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1280 of 1325 (881687)
08-27-2020 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1269 by Juvenissun
08-26-2020 6:51 PM


Juvenissun writes:

If we do not have free will, then there is no need for Christianity. Or, more precisely, there is no Christianity.

As well, even if we do have free will - there is still no need for Christianity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1269 by Juvenissun, posted 08-26-2020 6:51 PM Juvenissun has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1285 by Juvenissun, posted 08-27-2020 5:26 PM Stile has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1281 of 1325 (881692)
08-27-2020 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1277 by jar
08-27-2020 12:11 PM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
jar writes:

Read what was actually written Phat and then underline where I actually answered your questions in what you quoted.

Based on what I quoted, where would Hitler (a Christian by the way) and Pol Pot fit in?

OK, but I might add that not all who claim to be Christians are automatically thus Christians. Understanding that might help. In fact, I think you already know that...since you might argue that Christians are judged by what they do. Hitler obviously did not do what a Christian is supposed to do.

Now...to answer your question, allow me to reread and to underline.

Jars Belief Statement writes:

In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth.

GOD looked on what he had created and found it was Good.

Through a gift from GOD mankind was given the ability to know what is right from what is wrong.

GOD charges us to try to do Right, and to try not to do Wrong.

GOD is not cruel.

We are not condemned.

GOD chose ALL people.

We will be judged based on our own behavior.

According to the Sheep & Goats judgement, God may well have initially chosen all people, yet at the point of judgement He divides them up. You wont argue that both sheep and goats end up in Heaven, will you?(Of course none of us know)

Or are you telling me that GOD chose all people for Heaven? That's my basic question. If that is what you believe, i would find it incredulous.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1277 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 12:11 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1283 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 3:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1282 of 1325 (881693)
08-27-2020 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1279 by ringo
08-27-2020 12:57 PM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
ringo writes:

1. Why should anybody have to explain God's choices to you?

They shouldnt. If we agree, we both recognize God. If we disagree, you need God explained to you. You evidently have mistaken some spaghetti monster or Loki for the real deal.
2. Why should God's choices make sense to you?
The Book of Job clearly shows me that they often don't. If He in fact saved everyone, that too would blow my mind. But why on earth would I want Him to damn anyone? Unless perhaps they killed my Mother or my beloved pet. Even then would they really deserve Hell?

3. Why don't you ask Him yourself during your "communion"?
Trust me I often do.

4. Why would He only choose only the apologists and you?
Dont be silly. Stop it. I have mentioned before that He might even choose jar and yourself, despite your critically thinking minds that don't try and get to know Him.

5. Why don't you answer the questions people ask you?
Why dont you join the winning team instead of fighting us all of the time?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1279 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 12:57 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1286 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 9:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32915
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1283 of 1325 (881698)
08-27-2020 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1281 by Phat
08-27-2020 3:04 PM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Phat writes:

OK, but I might add that not all who claim to be Christians are automatically thus Christians. Understanding that might help. In fact, I think you already know that...since you might argue that Christians are judged by what they do. Hitler obviously did not do what a Christian is supposed to do.

Phat, anyone who is a member of a recognized chapter of Club Christian is a Christian. And Christians are not identified by what they do. And Hitler was never judged guilty of not being a Christian; Christians can and often are and have been among the great evils of all history.

Phat writes:

According to the Sheep & Goats judgement, God may well have initially chosen all people, yet at the point of judgement He divides them up. You wont argue that both sheep and goats end up in Heaven, will you?(Of course none of us know)

Again Phat, what is actually written.

I argue that in the story all of the GOATS are followers of Jesus and none make the cut and instead they are all damned.

Phat writes:

Or are you telling me that GOD chose all people for Heaven? That's my basic question. If that is what you believe, i would find it incredulous.

And you are still showing that you have not even read or honestly thought about what I said.

An omniscient god that is creator of all that is, seen and unseen is the ultimate evil if anyone is damned to hell. Such a god is unworthy of respect or worship and must be condemned and opposed.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1281 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 3:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Juvenissun
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1284 of 1325 (881708)
08-27-2020 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1272 by Phat
08-27-2020 8:58 AM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Juvenissun writes:
If we do not have free will, then there is no need for Christianity. Or, more precisely, there is no Christianity.

Don't tell them that! It only supports their belief that it was all made up! You are throwing the Holy Baby out with the bathwater.

Sorry, I thought I am talking to adults who can think.
The FACT that Christianity exists, says that free will exists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1272 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 8:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1287 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 9:16 PM Juvenissun has responded

  
Juvenissun
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1285 of 1325 (881709)
08-27-2020 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1280 by Stile
08-27-2020 1:11 PM


As well, even if we do have free will - there is still no need for Christianity.

Fine, that says we do have free will.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1280 by Stile, posted 08-27-2020 1:11 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1302 by Stile, posted 08-31-2020 9:05 AM Juvenissun has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18755
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 1286 of 1325 (881714)
08-27-2020 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1282 by Phat
08-27-2020 3:10 PM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Phat writes:

If we disagree, you need God explained to you.


I said, "God's CHOICES." What makes you so arrogant as to think you can explain God's choices?

Phat writes:

You evidently have mistaken some spaghetti monster or Loki for the real deal.


There's no evident difference.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Why don't you ask Him yourself during your "communion"?


Trust me I often do.

Then why are you so clueless? You should be able to answer all of those unanswered posts with no problem.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Why would He only choose only the apologists and you?


I have mentioned before that He might even choose jar and yourself, despite your critically thinking minds that don't try and get to know Him.

Maybe that's His point. Maybe He's using jar and me to try to drum some critical thinking into you.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Why don't you answer the questions people ask you?


Why dont you join the winning team instead of fighting us all of the time?

How can your team be winning if you can't answer the questions? How can you score at all when you keep running away from the ball?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1282 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 3:10 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18755
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1287 of 1325 (881715)
08-27-2020 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1284 by Juvenissun
08-27-2020 5:23 PM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Juvenissun writes:

The FACT that Christianity exists, says that free will exists.


And the fact that Judaism exists means what? And the fact that Islam exists means what? And the fact that Buddhism exists means what? And the fact that Mormonism exists means what?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1284 by Juvenissun, posted 08-27-2020 5:23 PM Juvenissun has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1288 by Juvenissun, posted 08-27-2020 10:27 PM ringo has responded

  
Juvenissun
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 07-25-2020
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1288 of 1325 (881725)
08-27-2020 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1287 by ringo
08-27-2020 9:16 PM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
They mean: God exists.

What you need to improve is to ask question related to the issue of discussion. In your case, question is cheap. That is an abuse to the value of question. Cheap question devalues yourself (back to be a kid). Good question is hard to ask. You are not able to evaluate your own question yet.

Edited by Juvenissun, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1287 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 9:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1290 by ringo, posted 08-28-2020 12:11 PM Juvenissun has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1289 of 1325 (881732)
08-28-2020 10:11 AM


Rethinking the issues addressed in our conversations
Again waking up earlyt and saying my morning prayers. The real life issues that I face (as opposed to the hypothetical arguments at EvC Forum) are often exposed in my morning communion. Through my time alone with God, I clearly feel His conviction, correction, or at times silence. When He is silent, I feel that He is allowing my own conscience to choose between selfishly holding on to a belief or idea or letting it go (by giving it to Him) .

I won't share my personal struggles here, but I will say that the solutions that seem to percolate to the surface are similar to the solutions in our hypothetical arguments that for me at least present some level of acceptance that I can live with. In general, some of them are:
SHARING: As to whether a blessing, favor, or solution belongs to ME alone or whether I am expected to share it with others. Honesty in this area exposes my fear at believing that the blessing has limits and whether I am holding on to my entitlement out of a real fear that letting go might mean that my blessing decreases.

ENTITLEMENT: As to what really belongs to me, what belongs to all of us, and what belongs to GOD and is His as regarding sole discretion over whom and what to distribute His largess.

The issues were addressed and I feel better, so now allow me to revisit some of your questions and rethink my answers.

ringo writes:

What makes you so arrogant as to think you can explain God's choices?

Good question. I believe that on one level, Christians who pray often and imagine a connection to God personally and not simply corporately by listening to Pastors, Evangelists and Apologists actually *do* have an idea or impression as to how God thinks, but this belief and awareness is constantly evolving and changing as we ourselves grow older and (hopefully) wiser. I certainly don't think nor believe that God is entirely unknowable. Jesus Christ has made it possible to know Him.
ringo writes:

Why should God's choices make sense to you?

Because God was made man through Jesus Christ. God became human in the 2nd member of the Trinity. If God chooses to relate to humanity through Jesus Christ, I...being also human...may have an inkling as to Gods choices in regards to humanity on this planet.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


Replies to this message:
 Message 1291 by ringo, posted 08-28-2020 12:14 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18755
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1290 of 1325 (881734)
08-28-2020 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1288 by Juvenissun
08-27-2020 10:27 PM


Re: God, free will, foreknowledge...pick a rabbit trail
Juvenissun writes:

What you need to improve is to ask question related to the issue of discussion.


My questions were directly related to what you posted. Even my phraseology directly mirrored yours.

Juvenissun writes:

In your case, question is cheap.


You gave a ten-dollar response that didn't answer a ten-cent question. You'll save yourself a lot of trouble if you just debate in good faith instead of whining about how other people debate.

Juvenissun writes:

Good question is hard to ask. You are not able to evaluate your own question yet.


You've told me yourself in other threads that I ask good questions. Try to get your story straight.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1288 by Juvenissun, posted 08-27-2020 10:27 PM Juvenissun has not yet responded

  
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