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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member
Posts: 18809
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1291 of 1379 (881735)
08-28-2020 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1289 by Phat
08-28-2020 10:11 AM


Re: Rethinking the issues addressed in our conversations
Phat writes:

I believe that on one level, Christians who pray often and imagine a connection to God personally and not simply corporately by listening to Pastors, Evangelists and Apologists actually *do* have an idea or impression as to how God thinks....


The evidence doesn't support that.

Phat writes:

If God chooses to relate to humanity through Jesus Christ, I...being also human...may have an inkling as to Gods choices in regards to humanity on this planet.


But you reject almost everything that Jesus said.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1289 by Phat, posted 08-28-2020 10:11 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1292 by Phat, posted 08-28-2020 2:26 PM ringo has responded
 Message 1293 by Phat, posted 08-28-2020 4:03 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1292 of 1379 (881739)
08-28-2020 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1291 by ringo
08-28-2020 12:14 PM


Re: Rethinking the issues addressed in our conversations
The evidence doesn't support that.
Are you telling me that The Evidence supports a contrarian point of view? Do enlighten me. I am asserting that God has been adequately explained through people whom are more in touch with Him than are the rest of you yahoos. You will strongly disagree, siding with jar and calling out "the apologists" as a bunch of carny barking hucksters. If God exists and is actually forever unknowable, then you guys have won the argument. Christianity is unnecessary. We can all become socialists, humanists and a unified planet of people relying only on ourselves to forge a brave new secular path into the future. Right?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1291 by ringo, posted 08-28-2020 12:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1294 by ringo, posted 08-28-2020 8:48 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1293 of 1379 (881744)
08-28-2020 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1291 by ringo
08-28-2020 12:14 PM


Re: Rethinking the issues addressed in our conversations
ringo,addressing me writes:

But you reject almost everything that Jesus said.

That isnt true and you know it. I reject the idea that you have embraced of taking Jesus message and applying it to socialism while allowing for secular humanism to be the belief. What I reject is secular humanism, not Jesus Christ.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1291 by ringo, posted 08-28-2020 12:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1295 by ringo, posted 08-28-2020 8:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1296 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2020 2:20 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18809
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 1294 of 1379 (881751)
08-28-2020 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1292 by Phat
08-28-2020 2:26 PM


Re: Rethinking the issues addressed in our conversations
Phat writes:

Are you telling me that The Evidence supports a contrarian point of view?


I'm telling you that the evidence doesn't support your claim that your "communion" with God gives you special knowledge.

Phat writes:

I am asserting that God has been adequately explained through people whom are more in touch with Him than are the rest of you yahoos.


The evidence does not support that assertion. If it did, you would be providing the evidence instead of constantly scoffing at the idea of evidence.

Phat writes:

We can all become socialists, humanists and a unified planet of people relying only on ourselves to forge a brave new secular path into the future. Right?


We can all become more like Jesus. Right.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1292 by Phat, posted 08-28-2020 2:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18809
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 1295 of 1379 (881753)
08-28-2020 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1293 by Phat
08-28-2020 4:03 PM


Re: Rethinking the issues addressed in our conversations
Phat writes:

Phat writes:

But you reject almost everything that Jesus said.


That isnt true and you know it.

It is true. You reject what He told the rich young ruler. You reject the prodigal son parable.

Phat writes:

I reject the idea that you have embraced of taking Jesus message and applying it to socialism...


I'm not applying anything. I'm directly quoting what He said.

Phat writes:

What I reject is secular humanism, not Jesus Christ.


Jesus was a humanist.

You're just using "socialist" and "humanist" as buzzwords without the dlightest understanding of what they mean.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1293 by Phat, posted 08-28-2020 4:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7987
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1296 of 1379 (881758)
08-29-2020 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1293 by Phat
08-28-2020 4:03 PM


Re: Rethinking the issues addressed in our conversations
Phat writes:

What I reject is secular humanism, [and socialism] not Jesus Christ.

You reject

“Do as you would be done by” and “Love thy neighbour”

?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1293 by Phat, posted 08-28-2020 4:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7987
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 1297 of 1379 (881771)
08-30-2020 4:09 AM


“Humanists believe that human beings produced the progressive advance of human society and also the ills that plague it. They believe that if the ills are to be alleviated, it is humanity that will have to do the job.”

Isaac Asimov.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1298 by Phat, posted 08-30-2020 2:30 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1298 of 1379 (881786)
08-30-2020 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1297 by Tangle
08-30-2020 4:09 AM


Omniscience Specifically
Christians believe that God is Spirit. They believe in One Holy Spirit and basically in One Body of Christ...the Church. It is taught that not ALL belong to this Body. Whether or not ALL ever will or not is for the future to decide.
Asimov writes:

“Humanists believe that human beings produced the progressive advance of human society and also the ills that plague it. They believe that if the ills are to be alleviated, it is humanity that will have to do the job.”

Christians are not by any means 100% unified in their beliefs regarding issues in the world, but by and large Christians also believe that humans produced the progressive advance of human society, though some, (remember Faith?) would argue that it was because of Christian values and specifically Christ in us that society advanced and that the ills that plague us were due to the lesser light..the occultic reflection that permeates the rest of the human animal. Christians are no better than the rest of the humans except that they have the light of the Spirit and not everybody automatically comes equipped with this.

They believe that if the ills are to be alleviated, it is necessary for societ6y to surrender to the Spirit of God and get rid of all the internal ills and mental; blocks that the lesser counterfeit light uses us for.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1297 by Tangle, posted 08-30-2020 4:09 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1299 by ringo, posted 08-30-2020 3:29 PM Phat has responded
 Message 1300 by Tangle, posted 08-30-2020 3:54 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18809
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1299 of 1379 (881795)
08-30-2020 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1298 by Phat
08-30-2020 2:30 PM


Re: Omniscience Specifically
Phat writes:

It is taught that not ALL belong to this Body.


That teaching is a lie. See the story of the prodigal son.

Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1298 by Phat, posted 08-30-2020 2:30 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1301 by Phat, posted 08-31-2020 5:23 AM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7987
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 1300 of 1379 (881796)
08-30-2020 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1298 by Phat
08-30-2020 2:30 PM


Re: Omniscience Specifically
Phat writes:

Christians believe that God is Spirit. They believe in One Holy Spirit and basically in One Body of Christ...the Church.

I wonder if even you know what that means. If anything.

Christians are not by any means 100% unified in their beliefs regarding issues in the world, but by and large Christians also believe that humans produced the progressive advance of human society

There's no one else going to do it is there? Conspicuous absence is the term.

They believe that if the ills are to be alleviated, it is necessary for societ6y to surrender to the Spirit of God and get rid of all the internal ills and mental; blocks that the lesser counterfeit light uses us for.

More meaningless drivel. pseudo-religous, contentless nonsense. What on earth do you think that means?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1298 by Phat, posted 08-30-2020 2:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1301 of 1379 (881804)
08-31-2020 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1299 by ringo
08-30-2020 3:29 PM


God does not simply know everyone.
ringo writes:

That teaching is a lie.

Calling evil good and good evil are we? If I told you that it was you who were taught the lies, you would demand that I do more than assert it. Jesus taught that the road to destruction was broad and that many follow it and that the road of truth was a narrow road and few would find it. He certainly never implied that ALL would find it nor that ALL would make it to Heaven.

Even John 3:16, the poster scripture of Christianity, while claiming correctly that God so loved the world...l(everyone)...it says that whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life. You will argue that this means that whosoever believes in the message (and does it) shall have eternal life. Believing in the message without belief in the resurrected Jesus Christ is an empty belief.

Luke 12:8-10 NIV writes:

"I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9 But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.

The New Age lie of Universal Christ Consciousness. Back to your old buddy, the snake again...who you claim told the truth, even when the Lie was and is that we can all be just like Jesus without need of God (Elohim) and that since humans alone are the only agents observable through science of making a change and an impact that helps all of us, *we* are in essence gods. Not only that, but the snake in todays world whispers to us that God is but a myth and does not exist. Satans lie has begun to replace Gods truth.

See the story of the prodigal son.
Are you trying to tell me that this story implies that we all are sons? Again, a son is "whosoever" recognizes and respects the father. Do you honestly think that the Father would kill the fatted calf simply for some entitled bozo who walked into the shelter, grabbed a free meal, then left the shelter to mosey on down to the corner bar? Its a two way street. The Father will accept anyone of us home. But the son must acknowledge what his home is. Where even his Fathers servants have enough to eat. Where his Father is his father. Where the messenger is his father and not simply an old man who warmly accepts everyone into his house and lets them do as *they* please.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1299 by ringo, posted 08-30-2020 3:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1303 by ringo, posted 08-31-2020 12:34 PM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4007
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1302 of 1379 (881806)
08-31-2020 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1285 by Juvenissun
08-27-2020 5:26 PM


Juvenissun writes:

Fine, that says we do have free will.

I don't think we can say such a thing so definitively yet.

I act as if I have free will.
But even what I have certainly isn't an "all-the-time" thing.

Things like panic, anxiety, surprise and instincts also exist.
When acting under such aspects - humans can be said to "have no free will" as their actions are reflexive and not "chosen."

This line between acting without free will, and acting by intellectually choosing between various options ("having free will") is different for all people and can vary greatly.

It's generally more productive to discuss having free will in specific situations/examples as opposed to attempt discussing it as a single attribute and assuming it's "on" all the time (as this is highly likely to be false.)

And we also need to remember that "having free will" at all is also still an assumption based upon incomplete evidence.
We do not fully understand the human mind and how it works and whether or not determinism is in play.
Maybe we have free will.
Maybe we only have an illusion of free will.
We don't know for sure yet - we don't know enough to such such a thing.

Without such knowledge - even our assumptions and conclusions that are based on the available evidence need to be reminded that they are not "as confident as things like math."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1285 by Juvenissun, posted 08-27-2020 5:26 PM Juvenissun has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18809
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1303 of 1379 (881808)
08-31-2020 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1301 by Phat
08-31-2020 5:23 AM


Re: God does not simply know everyone.
Phat writes:

Calling evil good and good evil are we?


You are, yes.

Phat writes:

If I told you that it was you who were taught the lies...


I would remind you that I wasn't taught anything. I just read what the text says.

Phat writes:

... you would demand that I do more than assert it.


I have tried to get you to do more than assert it but you never do. AND you refuse to discuss the lies that YOU have learned.

Phat writes:

Jesus taught that the road to destruction was broad and that many follow it and that the road of truth was a narrow road and few would find it.


And that contradicts your claim that your theology is mainstream.

Phat writes:

He certainly never implied that ALL would find it nor that ALL would make it to Heaven.


He said that He came to save ALL of us. He tried to tell YOU that YOU aren't going to make it if all you do is mouth Lord! Lord!

Phat writes:

Believing in the message without belief in the resurrected Jesus Christ is an empty belief.


You're contradicting Jesus.

Phat writes:

Back to your old buddy, the snake again...who you claim told the truth, even when the Lie was and is that we can all be just like Jesus without need of God (Elohim)...


The snake said no such thing. He said Adam and Eve would not die the same day that they ate the fruit. And they didn't. The snake told the truth.

Phat writes:

Not only that, but the snake in todays world whispers to us that God is but a myth and does not exist. Satans lie has begun to replace Gods truth.


You're just making up your own story.

Phat writes:

Again, a son is "whosoever" recognizes and respects the father.


The story of the prodigal son says the exact opposite: The father accepted the prodigal son unconditionally. The prodigal son was valued above the obedient son.

Phat writes:

Do you honestly think that the Father would kill the fatted calf simply for some entitled bozo who walked into the shelter, grabbed a free meal, then left the shelter to mosey on down to the corner bar?


The entitled bozo was the obedient son, like you. The father DID kill the fatted calf for the prodigal one. It says that at plain as day.

Phat writes:

The Father will accept anyone of us home. But the son must acknowledge what his home is.


No. That's not what the story says.

The father saw his son far away and went to meet him and welcome him home. He had no way of knowing whether or not the son had repented. WE don't know whether the son repented. It isn't important to the story.

It's getting very frustrating listening to you lie through your teeth about the Bible.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1301 by Phat, posted 08-31-2020 5:23 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1304 by Phat, posted 08-31-2020 2:31 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1304 of 1379 (881809)
08-31-2020 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1303 by ringo
08-31-2020 12:34 PM


Re: God does not simply know everyone.
Just because im "making stuff up" does not mean it is a lie. And just because you interpret the scripture the way that you claim it reads does not mean that you are sharing the truth. 5 people reading the plain text may get 5 differing interpretive meanings from it. Stop andd think.
  • If the scripture really did come inspirationally from an omniscient God through human authors, who is to say that there are also those He has chosen to interpret the message and spread the Word?
    And if the scripture was merely the intended mythos and story from various human authors, what is the harm of interpreting it the way that we choose?

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1303 by ringo, posted 08-31-2020 12:34 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1305 by ringo, posted 09-01-2020 12:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 1306 by FLRW, posted 09-02-2020 3:45 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18809
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.9


    (1)
    Message 1305 of 1379 (881828)
    09-01-2020 12:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 1304 by Phat
    08-31-2020 2:31 PM


    Re: God does not simply know everyone.
    Phat writes:

    Just because im "making stuff up" does not mean it is a lie.


    It is when you've been shown repeatedly that it isn't true.

    Phat writes:

    And just because you interpret the scripture the way that you claim it reads does not mean that you are sharing the truth.


    It isn't a "claim". It DOES say what it says. Anybody who reads it can see what it says.

    Phat writes:

    5 people reading the plain text may get 5 differing interpretive meanings from it.


    No they won't. You might get one or two very minor deviations but you won't get the exact opposite like your claims. The snake said they wouldn't die and they didn't. Anybody who reads that will read it correctly - unless they have been indoctrinated in apologist lies.

    Phat writes:

    Stop andd think.


    YOU stop and think. I have challenged you before to go back and answer your unanswered posts. If you actually THINK instead of just regurgitating what you have been spoon-fed, maybe you'll be able to discuss the topic honestly.

    Phat writes:

    If the scripture really did come inspirationally from an omniscient God through human authors, who is to say that there are also those He has chosen to interpret the message and spread the Word?


    If that was true, there would be no point in us ordinary peons reading the Bible at all. But if the peons aren't smart enough to read the Bible, how can they tell whether the apologists' interpretations have any merit?

    Phat writes:

    And if the scripture was merely the intended mythos and story from various human authors, what is the harm of interpreting it the way that we choose?


    It isn't harmful to me. It's harmful to you. It's the equivalent of taking your life savings in return for a bottle of snake oil.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1304 by Phat, posted 08-31-2020 2:31 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
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