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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1321 of 1379 (881895)
09-03-2020 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1319 by Tangle
09-03-2020 12:11 PM


Re: Returning to The Topic
Some things take time. And I never learned it from you...you don't even believe that God exists so how could you have taught me? O Tangled one, perhaps we should go fishing.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1319 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2020 12:11 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1324 by ringo, posted 09-03-2020 12:45 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1325 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2020 1:54 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18809
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1322 of 1379 (881896)
09-03-2020 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1309 by Phat
09-02-2020 6:35 PM


Re: God does not simply know everyone.
Phat writes:

...when a person gets saved...


I have asked you before, how can you be "saved" from something that hasn't happened yet? And what sense does it make to be "saved" BY the entity that you're being saved FROM? There's no logic to it.

Phat writes:

Ringo would claim that they likely would sit around braying Lord, Lord....but that implies that churches are full of posers trying simply to fit in and look spiritual to each other.


Not all posers. A lot of them are delusional.

Phat writes:

I argue, however, that it takes that inner awareness of the reality of His existence to even give me the desire to share this stuff with other....


That's not an argument, yada yada yada.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1309 by Phat, posted 09-02-2020 6:35 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18809
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1323 of 1379 (881897)
09-03-2020 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1313 by Phat
09-02-2020 8:25 PM


Re: God does not simply know everyone.
Phat writes:

...ive likely done more of that stuff than you have.


As Jesus pointed out to the disciples, the lady who gave two mites gave more than the rich men who gave bags of gold - because she gave all she had.

Phat writes:

Ringo claims I dont do what Jesus says to do, but I fail to see where I fall short...perhaps you know.


See above. Jesus told the rich young ruler to "sell what you have and give to the poor" - not "sell a lot and give to the poor". It isn't how much you do that counts. It's how much you could do and don't.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1313 by Phat, posted 09-02-2020 8:25 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18809
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 1324 of 1379 (881898)
09-03-2020 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1321 by Phat
09-03-2020 12:24 PM


Re: Returning to The Topic
Phat writes:

...you don't even believe that God exists so how could you have taught me?


Apparently it takes years and years of repetition to get through to you, so here goes, again: You can learn something from Frodo even if you don't believe The Lord of the Rings is true.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1321 by Phat, posted 09-03-2020 12:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7987
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 1325 of 1379 (881904)
09-03-2020 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1321 by Phat
09-03-2020 12:24 PM


Re: Returning to The Topic
Phat writes:

Some things take time.

Only if you fight your mind. This is very, very simple stuff, but you have to switch off that bit of your mind that can't let you think.

And I never learned it from you

You didn't learn it from anyone Phat, it's been pointed out to you hundreds of times.

...you don't even believe that God exists so how could you have taught me?

You see, you still haven't got it. It's logic, not belief.

Phat writes:

Thus, if God theoretically knew what I would choose He would also know on a day by day basis what I am choosing (day by day) and if I ended up damned it really would be His fault for not speaking to me in the still small voice which I believe He does have.

That isn't hard is it? The next step is to see that if god is all knowing and knows what you'll do before you were born and also knows that you'll murder someone but still sends you to hell for all eternity, then he's evil. At the very least, he doesn't love you.

O Tangled one, perhaps we should go fishing.

Anytime. Always.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1321 by Phat, posted 09-03-2020 12:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16623
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 1326 of 1379 (882859)
10-22-2020 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 990 by Stile
08-06-2020 2:19 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Missed this but I want to reply, so...
quote:
You're making one really big mistake, and riding it out to make all the other mistakes you're confusing:

We’ll see who is making the “really big mistakes”.

Remember, my position is that if God creates a universe, knowing everything that will happen in it, then God has primary responsibility for those events.

quote:
That's like saying you made the choice to have a blue room if I picked the colour and you simply painted the room.

Well, that’s obviously false. Knowing in advance is not the same as not knowing in advance. So there is one really big - and obvious mistake on your part.

quote:
So - if we make the choices of our free will, and therefore God does not choose how the actual universe will go...
And God merely creates the physical universe according to how our free wills decided how the actual universe will go...

Neither of these is the case in your scenario. In your scenario God ran a simulation and then chose to actualise that simulation. In doing that God chose that the events that occurred in the simulation should occur in reality. So God did clearly choose how the actual universe would go.

quote:
How are you then saying God made the choice of how the actual universe would go?

By choosing to actualise the simulation. That is absolutely clear.

quote:
You're playing semantics with the words.
You're taking "God made the universe - therefore, God decides all things in the universe" and applying it to my statements of "God made the universe, however, within that universe God did not decide all things, we decided our own free-willed choices."

This is an outright falsehood. All I am doing is pointing out the implications of your scenario.

quote:
Just because "God made the universe - therefore, God decides all things in the universe" is an easy and (perhaps) popular way to think of God creating universes does not mean that all universes must be created in this fashion.

But that is not what I am saying. You are leaving out the whole question of certain foreknowledge, despite the fact that you intentionally introduced that element and in spite of the fact that it is an essential part of the assignment of responsibility. Indeed, we had already agreed that simple creation without understanding the consequences is different.

quote:
Clearly - you're wrong, and it's just your insistence of "what you know of reality" that is blocking your ability to imagine a God with powers such as the ones I'm describing.

Since you are unable even to accurately represent my position and your objections fail to address it, it is clear that the problem is yours.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 990 by Stile, posted 08-06-2020 2:19 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1327 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 10:10 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 1343 by Stile, posted 10-23-2020 1:12 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1327 of 1379 (882860)
10-22-2020 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1326 by PaulK
10-22-2020 8:23 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
PaulK writes:

Remember, my position is that if God creates a universe, knowing everything that will happen in it, then God has primary responsibility for those events.

Why? Since when do humans demand that God be responsible when it is we who should be required to be responsible? And one would think that part of what our responsibility entails is to acknowledge that God is in a position over us and not something to be defined by us. It amazes me that some are oblivious to this position.
PaulK resonding to Stile writes:

You are leaving out the whole question of certain foreknowledge, despite the fact that you intentionally introduced that element and in spite of the fact that it is an essential part of the assignment of responsibility. Indeed, we had already agreed that simple creation without understanding the consequences is different.

Why must certain foreknowledge eliminate our responsibility? In theory, it should be irrelevant to us what God knows and doesn't know. We have no right to hold Him accountable--but only ourselves. Whether or not He smites us out of existence or not is beyond our control anyway and for us to hold Him accountable would only hypothetically be logical if we had a relationship with Him and knew our place rather than us arbitrarily setting the ground rules of the relationship.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1326 by PaulK, posted 10-22-2020 8:23 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1328 by jar, posted 10-22-2020 10:31 AM Phat has responded
 Message 1329 by PaulK, posted 10-22-2020 10:48 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33010
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 1328 of 1379 (882861)
10-22-2020 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1327 by Phat
10-22-2020 10:10 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:

Why must certain foreknowledge eliminate our responsibility?

LOL

That has been explained to you a brazillion times Phat.

If God is the creator of all that is seen and unseen then God is responsible for all that it created.

If God is the creator of all that is seen and unseen and God has foreknowledge then God is responsible for all that is done by what it created.

If God is the creator of all that is seen and unseen and God has foreknowledge then God is responsible for all that is done by what it created and if anything created is then damned then that God is also evil and unworthy of anything but contempt.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1327 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 10:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1330 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 10:52 AM jar has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16623
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 1329 of 1379 (882862)
10-22-2020 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1327 by Phat
10-22-2020 10:10 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
quote:
Why?

Because God knowingly decided that those things would happen, and as a consequence they inescapably will.

Given that, how could God not be responsible? Are you going to argue that God can’t understand what he’s doing?

quote:
… when it is we who should be required to be responsible?

For what? God’s decisions made long before we were born?

quote:
And one would think that part of what our responsibility entails is to acknowledge that God is in a position over us and not something to be defined by us.

This is incoherent.

quote:
Why must certain foreknowledge eliminate our responsibility?

I didn’t say that it was eliminated, just that it was secondary to the responsibility of the primary decision-maker - whose decisions came first and were made in full understanding of the consequences.

quote:
In theory, it should be irrelevant to us what God knows and doesn't know.

It cannot be when discussing this subject because it is one of the most relevant issues.

quote:
Whether or not He smites us out of existence or not is beyond our control anyway and for us to hold Him accountable would only hypothetically be logical if we had a relationship with Him and knew our place rather than us arbitrarily setting the ground rules of the relationship.

There is no problem with addressing the question of responsibility as a hypothetical.

We do not have a duty to be sycophants. If you insist we do, you paint God as a tyrant. And you know my feelings about that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1327 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 10:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1348 by Phat, posted 10-24-2020 2:58 AM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1330 of 1379 (882863)
10-22-2020 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1328 by jar
10-22-2020 10:31 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
If God is the creator of all that is seen and unseen then God is responsible for all that it created.
I challenge thatg assumption. Is a parent responsible for their childs behavior beyond the age of accountability? Is that Grandparent responsible for how their child raises their grandchildren? Why then must God be responsible for our behavior and our choices?

If God is the creator of all that is seen and unseen and God has foreknowledge then God is responsible for all that is done by what it created.
Foreknowledge is irrelevant. It is quite simply none of our business what God knows and when.
If God is the creator of all that is seen and unseen and God has foreknowledge then God is responsible for all that is done by what it created and if anything created is then damned then that God is also evil and unworthy of anything but contempt.
Perhaps in this case you have an argument.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1328 by jar, posted 10-22-2020 10:31 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1331 by jar, posted 10-22-2020 11:41 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 1332 by ringo, posted 10-22-2020 12:14 PM Phat has responded
 Message 1336 by Tangle, posted 10-22-2020 12:55 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33010
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1331 of 1379 (882864)
10-22-2020 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1330 by Phat
10-22-2020 10:52 AM


Think Phat. Try it. You might like it.
Phat writes:

I challenge thatg assumption. Is a parent responsible for their childs behavior beyond the age of accountability? Is that Grandparent responsible for how their child raises their grandchildren? Why then must God be responsible for our behavior and our choices?

Do you even know what "all that is, seen and unseen" includes? All that is. Good, bad, sad, happy. All that is.

Phat writes:

Foreknowledge is irrelevant. It is quite simply none of our business what God knows and when.

It is relevant to those Christians that claim God has foreknowledge.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1330 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 10:52 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18809
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1332 of 1379 (882865)
10-22-2020 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1330 by Phat
10-22-2020 10:52 AM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:

Is a parent responsible for their childs behavior beyond the age of accountability?


But you're always saying that God doesn't want us to grow up.

Either we're responsible and God is irrelevant or God is responsible.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1330 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 10:52 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1333 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 12:22 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1333 of 1379 (882866)
10-22-2020 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1332 by ringo
10-22-2020 12:14 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Either we're responsible and God is irrelevant or God is responsible.
You always make these blanket assumptions. I've no problem with us being responsible but how on Gods green earth does this then make Him irrelevant?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1332 by ringo, posted 10-22-2020 12:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1334 by ringo, posted 10-22-2020 12:27 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18809
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1334 of 1379 (882867)
10-22-2020 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1333 by Phat
10-22-2020 12:22 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
Phat writes:

You always make these blanket assumptions.


it's not an assumption. It's a conclusion.

Phat writes:

I've no problem with us being responsible but how on Gods green earth does this then make Him irrelevant?


The same way that the Pope is irrelevant to your decision on whom you vote for. If you're responsible, somebody else isn't. That's pretty simple.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1333 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 12:22 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1335 by Phat, posted 10-22-2020 12:41 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1335 of 1379 (882868)
10-22-2020 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1334 by ringo
10-22-2020 12:27 PM


Re: Introducing An Old Argument Revisited
The same way that the Pope is irrelevant to your decision on whom you vote for. If you're responsible, somebody else isn't. That's pretty simple.
Not really equivalent at all.

The Pope is human. God isnt. Now it may well turn out that God is irrelevant or non existent but this is not conclusive and thus God cannot be judged irrelevant except by your uninformed choice.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1334 by ringo, posted 10-22-2020 12:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1337 by ringo, posted 10-22-2020 12:57 PM Phat has responded

  
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