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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1366 of 1385 (883118)
11-07-2020 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1365 by ringo
10-27-2020 8:21 PM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
Phat writes:

The global population will likely never be "equal" in terms of basic necessities for a long time. And I highly doubt that Jesus expects any different. Reality is what it is. As He Himself said, "The poor you will always have with you".


ringo writes:

He didn't say they would always be the same poor.

What sense does that make? So one guy has a house and sells it to give to the poor. So then he becomes poor? Utter nonsense! Hey I'm not saying in any way that Jesus expects us to give without grumbling or begrudgingly out of obligation. The Lord loves a cheerful giver. Today's modern Republicans tend to give if they can write it off of their taxes. Very few people are simply going to sell all that they have and go skipping down the road being like Jesus (Who had no place to lay His head.) Nevertheless He owned the cattle on a thousand hills. He became broken (and broke) for all of us. So in a sense I can see where you argue that He wanted us to do likewise.
Feed,Comfort and Encourage others.
Note, however, that He never commanded everyone whom He had contact with to give all that they had. Zacheus gave half...voluntarily. Mary and Martha likely had a place to live. And about this idea that the poor are not always the same poor....how exactly does that work?

In essence, I am arguing with you (or with Jesus, can't discern which) that He surely is OK with how I am living, though He encourages me to become less selfish. As of yet, in all my prayers, I have never heard Him tell me to give it all up except metaphorically. And you argue that you are not expected to do so because you are not a believer. Some cop-out!


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1365 by ringo, posted 10-27-2020 8:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1367 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2020 11:13 AM Phat has responded
 Message 1376 by ringo, posted 11-13-2020 8:14 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7993
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1367 of 1385 (883120)
11-07-2020 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1366 by Phat
11-07-2020 10:47 AM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
Phat writes:

As of yet, in all my prayers, I have never heard Him tell me to give it all up …

Has he ever told you to do anything you'd rather not?

…except metaphorically.

hmmm, do I smell another get out clause?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1366 by Phat, posted 11-07-2020 10:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1368 by Phat, posted 11-07-2020 2:30 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1368 of 1385 (883128)
11-07-2020 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1367 by Tangle
11-07-2020 11:13 AM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
I'll tell you one thing...I'm not gonna walk around like a barefoot hippie preaching love if I don't even have a pot to piss in. If you guys get to keep your stuff I'm sure keeping mine.; Ringo and you insist that Jesus is just a character in a book of rules written by humans. Granted you can charge mee with making Him up, but I stand by the Jesus I pray to and commune with. He is no mere statue or icon.

You guys just brought up the suggestion for me to give up everything I had in order to show me how weak my faith actually is.

Thanks a lot!


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1367 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2020 11:13 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1369 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2020 3:38 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7993
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1369 of 1385 (883132)
11-07-2020 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1368 by Phat
11-07-2020 2:30 PM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
Phat writes:

I'll tell you one thing...I'm not gonna walk around like a barefoot hippie preaching love if I don't even have a pot to piss in. If you guys get to keep your stuff I'm sure keeping mine.;

Well that's ok with me, only a total loon would do it. We're just pointing out that your book requires it of you.

Ringo and you insist that Jesus is just a character in a book of rules written by humans. Granted you can charge mee with making Him up, but I stand by the Jesus I pray to and commune with. He is no mere statue or icon.

Sure, we know that's what you think.

You guys just brought up the suggestion for me to give up everything I had in order to show me how weak my faith actually is.

Nope, we're just pointing out the contradictions in your belief.

Thanks a lot!

Welcome. But you didn't actually answer my question, has god ever asked you to do anything you didn't want to do?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1368 by Phat, posted 11-07-2020 2:30 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1370 by Phat, posted 11-10-2020 11:25 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1370 of 1385 (883174)
11-10-2020 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1369 by Tangle
11-07-2020 3:38 PM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
tangle writes:

But you didn't actually answer my question, has god ever asked you to do anything you didn't want to do?

Though I'm not 100% sure it was God asking me to do it rather than my intuitive mind, I believe that I have been told that I am to fast for 3 days. I know that it is logical and rational, yet I can't make myself do it. So far, that is...

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1369 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2020 3:38 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1371 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2020 3:09 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7993
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1371 of 1385 (883175)
11-11-2020 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1370 by Phat
11-10-2020 11:25 PM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
Phat writes:

Though I'm not 100% sure it was God asking me to do it rather than my intuitive mind,

Yes, I can see that that might be a difficulty... But you seem to be only having cause to doubt God's voice when it's asking you to do something you don't want to do?

I believe that I have been told that I am to fast for 3 days. I know that it is logical and rational, yet I can't make myself do it. So far, that is...

The words 'logical' and 'rational' don't apply here Phat.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1370 by Phat, posted 11-10-2020 11:25 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1372 by Phat, posted 11-11-2020 1:48 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1372 of 1385 (883176)
11-11-2020 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1371 by Tangle
11-11-2020 3:09 AM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
tangle writes:

Yes, I can see that that might be a difficulty... But you seem to be only having cause to doubt God's voice when it's asking you to do something you don't want to do?

It is always wise to question(not doubt, necessarily) what inner voice or unction that I have. The Bible tells us to test the spirits.

Tangle writes:

The words 'logical' and 'rational' don't apply here Phat.

Au Contraire, O Tangled One. A 3 day fast with water only will do more towards positively helping my health than any handful of pills or even a specific pill would do.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1371 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2020 3:09 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1373 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2020 1:59 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7993
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 1373 of 1385 (883177)
11-11-2020 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1372 by Phat
11-11-2020 1:48 PM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
Phat writes:

It is always wise to question(not doubt, necessarily) what inner voice or unction that I have. The Bible tells us to test the spirits.

But you only seem to find reasons to question stuff that you don't want to do?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1372 by Phat, posted 11-11-2020 1:48 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1374 by Phat, posted 11-13-2020 4:06 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1374 of 1385 (883186)
11-13-2020 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1373 by Tangle
11-11-2020 1:59 PM


Tangling With Tangles Logic
But you only seem to find reasons to question stuff that you don't want to do?
Well sure. Why on earth would I eveen want to find a reason to question God when he tells me something that I want to do? Even if it was not His voice, I want to follow that discipline anyway. As I said before, I find it harder to obey when it is something that i don't want to do. Now...granted you guys cleverly found something in "the book" that seemed to be a command in general.(sell all that you have and give it to the poor) and I promptly went into defensive mode.
I can come up with several excuses:
1) I don't listen to the character in the book if He is talking to a rich young ruler. And 2) I feel that there is evidence that Jesus (in the book) did most certainly NOT command the same from everyone He encountered. I feel that some of you...notably lingo...have no problem imagining Jesus as a socialist with no private possessions. Its easy to do if you have the power to own everything.
And I will admit that my faith is weak...I certainly wont be the first to give it all up.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1373 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2020 1:59 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1375 by Tangle, posted 11-13-2020 4:11 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7993
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 1375 of 1385 (883187)
11-13-2020 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1374 by Phat
11-13-2020 4:06 AM


Re: Tangling With Tangles Logic
Phat writes:

Well sure. Why on earth would I eveen want to find a reason to question God when he tells me something that I want to do?

Why would you question god at all? He's your god speaking to you directly ffs. He always right isn't he? Who are you to question the Almighty?

You don't actually think it's him do you?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1374 by Phat, posted 11-13-2020 4:06 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1376 of 1385 (883194)
11-13-2020 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1366 by Phat
11-07-2020 10:47 AM


Re: Tit for Tat with ringo at bat
Phat writes:

Zacheus gave half...voluntarily.


He also promised to make fourfold restitution to the people he had cheated. That accounts for the other half.

As I have tried to show you many times, it isn't how much you give that counts; it's how much you hold back.

Phat writes:

The Lord loves a cheerful giver.


He also kills tbe ones who hold back - e.g. Ananias and Sapphira.

Phat writes:

And about this idea that the poor are not always the same poor....how exactly does that work?


It ain't rocket science. A guy loses his job and he's poor for a while. Then he gets another job and something similar happens to somebody else.

What Jesus said is NOT an excuse to not help the poor.

Phat writes:

except metaphorically. And you argue that you are not expected to do so because you are not a believer. Some cop-out!


It's not a copout at all. Why would I follow the instructions of a fictional character? I help the poor because it's the right thing to do, not because somebody told me to.

And why would you, who thinks the character is real, NOT follow His instructions?


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1366 by Phat, posted 11-07-2020 10:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1377 by Phat, posted 11-14-2020 4:04 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1377 of 1385 (883197)
11-14-2020 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1376 by ringo
11-13-2020 8:14 PM


Tit For Tat With Ringo & Phat
I help the poor because it's the right thing to do, not because somebody told me to.
Me too. My point of contention with your form of liberalism is that the people collectively make you give. "They" tell me to do it if they gain enough power. That's even worse than God telling you.

Thats why I say that the Lord loves a cheerful giver. Its much better to have freedom to give or not give.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1376 by ringo, posted 11-13-2020 8:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1378 by ringo, posted 11-16-2020 11:14 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1378 of 1385 (883219)
11-16-2020 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1377 by Phat
11-14-2020 4:04 AM


Re: Tit For Tat With Ringo & Phat
Phat writes:

My point of contention with your form of liberalism is that the people collectively make you give.


But they don't. They can't. They have no way of knowing what I give.

Phat writes:

"They" tell me to do it if they gain enough power.


It has nothing to do with "power". Why don't you listen to what I tell you about "my form of liberalism" instead of your right-wing propaganda?

Phat writes:

Thats why I say that the Lord loves a cheerful giver.


And I'll remind you that He kills the ones who hold back.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1377 by Phat, posted 11-14-2020 4:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1379 by Phat, posted 11-23-2020 1:56 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1379 of 1385 (883242)
11-23-2020 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1378 by ringo
11-16-2020 11:14 AM


Re: Tit For Tat With Ringo & Phat
Phat writes:

My point of contention with your form of liberalism is that the people collectively make you give.


But they don't. They can't.
They do it through voting in mandatory taxation on the middle class....those who make under $200,000 a year but more than the average.

At least Republicans advocate voluntary giving to the charity of their choice rather than forcing the small business owning middle(working) class to cough up the money to help the poor.

Phat writes:

"They" tell me to do it if they gain enough power.


It has nothing to do with "power"
It does if they raise taxes. Why should I get penalized by some socialist ideology that since I have the "ability" to help others in need I should be mandatorily shoehorned into doing so?
Phat writes:

Thats why I say that the Lord loves a cheerful giver.


And I'll remind you that He kills the ones who hold back.
Quite a claim coming from a guy who loves to quote what the book says yet does no0t believe in the God in the book. If I give spare change it should be my decision rather than a tax law designed to make me give.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1378 by ringo, posted 11-16-2020 11:14 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1380 by ringo, posted 11-25-2020 11:36 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1380 of 1385 (883274)
11-25-2020 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1379 by Phat
11-23-2020 1:56 AM


Re: Tit For Tat With Ringo & Phat
Phat writes:

At least Republicans advocate voluntary giving to the charity of their choice....


And that has never worked. There are always poor people, as somebody once said.

Phat writes:

... rather than forcing the small business owning middle(working) class to cough up the money to help the poor.


How is that different from forcing the same middle/working class to help the military-industrial complex?

Every government collects taxes. I'm just advocating spending them on something useful.

Phat writes:

Why should I get penalized by some socialist ideology that since I have the "ability" to help others in need I should be mandatorily shoehorned into doing so?


The phrase "manditorily shoehorned" is your phrase. It's your bad attitude. I'm saying you should be glad to pay taxes for useful purposes.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

And I'll remind you that He kills the ones who hold back.


Quite a claim coming from a guy who loves to quote what the book says yet does no0t believe in the God in the book.

For God's sake, stop using that stupid argument. I don't have to believe Frodo existed to know what the book says.

Phat writes:

If I give spare change it should be my decision rather than a tax law designed to make me give.


Why? Nothing else that your tax money is spent on is your decision.

As for your propaganda chart:

  • I do NOT advocate assets ownded by "government/cooperatives".
  • EVERYBODY advocates redistribution of income.
  • I do NOT advocate price controls.
  • I do NOT advocate "government-owned firms", PERIOD.
  • I do NOT advocate "high progressive taxes". I DO advocate higher spending on public services.
  • Healthcare provided by the government free at point of use is practically a worldwide standard. You would have to be insane to advocate healthcare for profit.
  • I do NOT advocate "state industry".
  • I DEFINITELY DO promote equality. And why should we not "attempt to overcome market failure"? We attempt to overcome every other problem, don't we?

    Why don't you pay attention to what I actually say instead of just parroting what your right-wing handlers tell you I think?


    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1379 by Phat, posted 11-23-2020 1:56 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1381 by Phat, posted 11-25-2020 1:50 PM ringo has responded

      
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