If prayers go unanswered....?

Hi Mike, here's a bit of sunshine for this thread.This message has been edited by Monk, Thu, 03-31-2005 10:55 AM

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

But the same Public Relations can be applied to an atheist view of prayer.If a believer gets what is asked for, it is merely chance, pure coincidence.If a believer does not get what is asked for, then prayer is a futile activity.Therefore, prayer always fails. With the right spin, the atheist can never be wrong.Now, what is not often considered by atheists is this question. How often does a coincidence need to occur before it can begin to look no longer as a coincidence?Does the sum total of multiple coincidences occurring on a regular basis and often in quick succession constitute something other than one large coincidence? One might say no, it is just one large coincidence, until it happens to them.This message has been edited by Monk, Fri, 04-01-2005 11:19 AM

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

confidence interval? chi-square? Tell me more o ye wise toadie Ah now, unless the mathematical tools that you esteem have been used on believers and in this particular situation such that a consensus of data can be perused, then your assumption of error is preconceived.

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

There isn’t a right or wrong way, just jumping is fine. Welcome aboard! Good point. Prayer means many things to different people. But asking for favors is a small part of it. No small favors for Mike, but isn't it nice to know you can ask for them if need be?Then up thread That’s a very narrow viewPrayer is talking to God, communicating with Him, thanking Him, listening to Him, being changed by Him. It is more than just asking for a specific need. That’s only one of many reasons to pray.Ultimately, prayer is about connecting with God (relationally). A friendship without communication isn't much of a friendship. But if you ask people why they pray, there are a multitude of responses that are as varied as the relationships between people. U.S News and Beliefnet conducted an informal survey asking why do people pray. The responses reveal a vision of a supreme being, not as strict moral arbiter but rather as source of wisdom, strength, and comfort.With more than 5,600 responses, the results were varied but there seemed to be a few broad categories. 33% said that the most important purpose of prayer was "intimacy with God." Another 28% said that the most important purpose of prayer was "to seek God's guidance." Link

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

I wasn’t referring to the power of prayer in that way when I mentioned coincidence. Prayer as identified in these studies indicates a cause and effect mechanism whose results could be measured, outcomes predicted, verdict affirmed. Can God be put in a bottle?It should be no surprise that clinical studies such as these would show no effect of prayer. How could it be otherwise?How would it be possible for these studies to show a direct, positive, repeatable correlation between prayer and answered prayers?For if the studies prove, beyond statistical doubt, that a certain quantity of petitioners praying simultaneously could produce positive results for the object of the prayer requests.Then data could be accumulated that would allow the development of formulas for predicting, with a certain percentage of accuracy or probability, how effective a given prayer session will be.Where is God in all this? Surely He would be aware that His actions would lead to the formulation of the predictive theorems before He grants the prayer request. Would He do it anyway?Maybe, I certainly could be wrong about this, but IMHO I suspect that when and if God chooses to step back into human history such that his actions are easily recognizable and incontrovertible proof is given of His existence, it would be more significant than as a statistic.This message has been edited by Monk, Sun, 04-03-2005 05:37 PM

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

I don't quite understand your point. I believe in a God whose actions are distinguishable from random outcomes.

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

That’s right, He maintains free will as a choice for us by avoiding our discovery of direct physical evidence of his existence discernable to the general public. He chooses not to be quantified objectively by humans, He chooses not to make his presence known in this age in a wholly discernable way.Doesn’t mean He hasn’t done so in the past or will not do so in the future, it only means He is not doing so today. It simply means He prefers another method of communicating in this age. Not at all, God chooses when, to whom, and how He makes his presence known and which prayers are answered.

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

God does act in ways that can be detected and to the billions of believers who have felt and seen His presence in their lives, that detection is very real. But God will not allow himself to be analyzed such that His actions can be predicted with mathematical precision. Again, you can’t put God in a bottle.Your analogous story is meaningless, you compare God’s actions to the actions of some guy. I’ll say it again, God’s influence IS detectable. I never said His influence is always undetectable

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

Very true. Inquiring and bright minds have worked hard over the generations to understand all sorts of medical and technological problems to make life easier. Agree 100%But your next line is where we differ. You cannot possibly say that God was not involved and have it carry any weight. You don’t know the motivations and beliefs of each of these generations of people and the inspirations that served as the genesis for their great technological breakthroughs.But what I can say is that over all those generations right up to the present day, the vast majority of those bright minds were believers who not only had a profound respect for God but also for the majesty of His creations.

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

I wrote:

quote:

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But what I can say is that over all those generations right up to the present day, the vast majority of those bright minds were believers who not only had a profound respect for God but also for the majesty of His creations.

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Did I mention scientists? Are scientists the only bright minds in this or past generations who have made medical or technological contributions ?You narrow the focus of the term bright minds to scientists in order to prove your point without acknowledging that atheist scientists are a minority subset of the broader category of people who are represented by the term bright minds.And while I do agree that the trend over the last century has been an increase in atheism among scientists, it doesn’t change my original observation that the vast majority of bright minds over the centuries have been people of faith. No, I can’t read minds as you did in your previous assertion that God was not involved.Let me remove the adjectives in my previous comment and say that the vast majority of believers respect God and His creations. Wouldn’t that be a fair statement? It may not describe everyone who holds faith in God, but I believe the term vast majority would apply.My use of the term bright minds includes a group far larger than the subset of atheist scientists, so the vast majority of bright minds throughout history have been believers.

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

You and I are reading the same words but......I said:

quote:

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I’ll say it again, God’s influence IS detectable. I never said His influence is always undetectable

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Your response: Where in this quote did I say His influence is always undetectable where? Read each word, did you find it? Don’t interprete meaning, read..the..words.. it’s not there.Lets break it down. He chooses not to be quantified objectively by humans. Meaning He will not allow His actions to be predicted through analyzing the positive effects of prayer. Because to do so would prove His existence conclusively, through physical constructs, to the masses.As I previously mentioned, He takes this approach because of His gift of free will.He chooses not to make His presence known in this age in a wholly discernable way. The key phrase being "wholly discernable". That does not mean that He does not influence or cause prayers to be answered or become involved with the course of events on Earth.You wish to objectively prove the existence of God through crude statistical analysis. Surely God would be amused at such feeble attempts to quantify His existence. Who says there is no such thing as half detectable? You? God chooses when, how, and to whom He makes His presence known. The fact that He does not permit measurement of His actions by non believers should not be a surprise. Here we come to the core issue. For a non believer, this is true. For a believer, it is false.Have we become circular?This message has been edited by Monk, Mon, 04-04-2005 10:51 AMThis message has been edited by Monk, Mon, 04-04-2005 10:57 AM

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

It has been mentioned upthread that prayer is much more than asking for something. But, putting that aside, I’ll try to respond. God does have a plan. Nobody knows the fullness of it, but the Bible teaches that He desires all people to come to Him. But He can’t force us to come to Him if He wishes to maintain the gift of free will.So even though God has a plan for us, if we choose not to accept that plan, then that plan for that individual has not been fulfilled.Does that imply a change in plans? No, the plan remains the same, but the outcome or the fulfillment of that plan remains in doubt as it pertains to each individual. Just because God knows which action we will take through the exercise of free will does not mean that He forces us to take that action.

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

Ah geez, I was trying to close out my participation in this discussion before it devolved into tripe verbosity.Oh well, another time.

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

Why do you want that information? You don't think the majority of people over the centuries have been people of faith?

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

I never claimed medical advances exclusively nor did I use the term "always".Why does the determination of the type of faith, or worship services, or which sect or denomination these belivers were part of have any impact on whether they were part of a larger group of people who believed in God?I mean isn't is suffice to say they were believers without determining their specific type of worship?

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein