If prayers go unanswered....?

This may sound selfish and strange, but it's because of society and their sentimental and confused position concerning what prayer actually is, but when Christ spoke of prayer, he spoke of personal prayer, Strange though it may seem, I find all of my serious personal prayers are answered, but when I pray for others, they don't seek the Kingdom of heaven first and then have things added to them. Those people don't believe in Christ, so how can they be healed. Can you feed a man bread if he doesn't believe he can open his mouth?All those things you mentioned, I don't even pray for. This shows a mis-understanding of how God works, according to the bible. He isn't some performing omni-monkey for every whim on the planet.I know what you're getting at, you think that all these prayers going un-answered = no God. The question is, if God is there, why are they going unanswered? Did he say he'd answer every problem? Did not he say that his very own disiples would be handed over and put to death? So have you understood?Christ didn't tell me to pray for an hungred babas, he said feed them. He didn't tell me to pray for wars, for they "must needs be", nor should I fret. Christ didn't tell me to ask for most of these things and I'm hard pressed as to why people of secularist nature assume that the big magic omni-being is some kind of prayer-junky we go to when we need anything.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-30-2005 08:09 PM

I've heard this many times. Confirmation bias and post hoc reasoning.It's clever but not conclusive logically because there is no way to discern the difference. i.e. If God doesn't want you to have certain things, so you get an answer "no" or the answer is "he doesn't exist". (how can you tell which one? Answer; You can't tell which the answer is so you can't conclude that we are wrong and you are right, logically, you just can't do it).If you get an answer "yes" then it's just according to what probability and chance would allow according to a skeptic, because s/he is looking at this scientifically, and thereby she knows that a confirmation doesn't mean much in science but a falsification means a lot.So the real problem is that how can one conclude as to whether God exists on the basis of misses? How can we conclusively say that either he doesn't exist or that he is simply saying "no"?As for post-hoc reasoning, the cause is essentially singular. So that's wrong.If I ask for healing of cancer, and I get an ice-cream then that clearly illustrates my point; which is that prayer request are specific.If it was post hoc, then it would go like this;I was watching television and I asked God to give me a sign, and the television switched off.This IS post-hoc, because the cause wasn't really your prayer.However, if I ask Jesus to appear on my plate, and he does then I fail to see how that is not a specific request which is indeed a confirmed occurence and is not post-hoc.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-31-2005 06:13 AM

Where does the bible say that God is all-loving? Where does it make out that God will always heal a person? Infact, this is exactly my point about society's idea of God. Where does it say that God is all-loving? Does he love sin and wickedness? What about the flood?I think this is a transgression of the second Commandment. Making God to fit your(society) own image, (society is guilty).Now if you pray for an ill baby and doesn't get healed, then what about what the NT ACTUALLY SAYS about prayer?"IF it is according TO GOD'S will, then it shall be added unto you."So then, you say that if God doesn't heal a baby, then God doesn't exist, but that's on your own terms, and not according to the character of God in the bible. It is so typical to simply say "an all-powerful, and all-loving God would such and such......." I mean, that's a classical flaw in societies idea about the God of the bible, that he is some omni-monkey that should do what you say he should do.So then, if a baby dies, are you considering that it is God's will if it is not healed? Are you looking at it from God's perspective, or your own?I apreciate the rest of your post about confirmation bias. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think it's too easy to simply say there is no God if he doesn't answer prayer.Also, look at the things mentioned in post one. I bet you found out about those things because of TV or radio. Wouldn't you find it odd, if you were God and people were praying about natural disasters that are not even in their lives? You see, I suppose I could pray that no more supernovae happen in the haemaroid cluster in a galaxy far away, but then wouldn't God say, "why does that concern you"?Infact, these prayers for global events only happen because we have made things like Tv and radio, but in the bible days, prayer involved your life and maybe extended to people in your village etc...so I think it's a mis-understanding of what prayer actually is.Praying for an ill baby is certainly a prayer I am guilty of praying, because of hearing something on the news.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-31-2005 08:14 AM

I was careful enough to say that it would not be God's intention to heal the child, which is different from it being God's intention that the child has a disease. Christ cast out illness, of whoever he came across. Illness and disease has been here because of the fall. You might not have noticed but God didn't create the concrete jungle you inhabit, because in the beginning it was good. Did you also notice that Christ didn't feed everyone on earth, or heal everyone and that he fed the five thousand but not all the other hungry people? Does this mean he doesn't exist if he feeds the five thousand but not the rest of the hungry? This is why looking at prayer scientifically is a waste of time.Someone asked Christ, "if you will heal me" and he said, "I will".Did you notice that he raised Lazarus from death? But is Lazarus alive still? If Lazarus still died then was it the end of days for Lazarus when he eventually did die? What about an ill baby? Everyone dies. Now some people I have prayed for (with others), have been healed, because it what God's will that they be so.If it was up to me, babies would be healed in a lot bigger number, but that's not God's will, it mine/ours. It's our sentimental wish.Nevertheless, I doubt you're counting the ones that are healed, or looking for such instances of miraculous recovery are you?This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-31-2005 08:59 AM

That doesn't say God is all-loving. He loves the world but I'm confident he doesn't love all that goes on in it. And who is "us"?Love is only mentioned in the bible, between believers and in confident most times.You think the OT is another God. That's your problem. You have a view that God is loving but not just and willing. But take the flood and Sodom and Gomorah for instance, very good examples of how God enforces righteousness when "every thought of their heart was evil".As for ill babies, many are healed, others aren't because of heavenly destinations. That's all that's left because Christ said wars and major devastations "must needs be" and "do not fret", and Christ loved his disciples did he not? Yet he told them they'd be handed over to government and killed. Do you think he loved them? He certainly did. So those he loved most were killed.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-31-2005 09:27 AM

This is specifically concerning the misses though Shraff. I can certainly say that either God isn't there or the answer is "no". We know that if a specific request is made and answered then it's more realistic to say that it was from God.I can't tell the difference if I ask for something and I don't get it. Does it mean God doesn't exist or does it mean he said "no"? It means that I have no way of knowing, but I think the hits provide a way in which I can know = bad science, I concede. "That's my little scientist" - Contact. Not my ability tho Shraff, God's.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-31-2005 10:05 AM

Hi. I am a believer, and so these aren't my serious prayers. (pope, wars etc)Come on, do you want me to pretend I care about the pope or an earthquake? No, I won't. I admitt I feel a slight sympathy, but the cold truth is that I can't be bothered praying for such things.Things people care about most are their families and people they know, because humans are relative fools. We apply meaning only when something means something "to us". Isn't that selfish? If I know you then I'll cry if you die, if I don't then news of your death will probably mean little. Sure, I will honestly have compassion because already I have conversed with you and now know you a bit. But people die everyday and I don't cry much of pray. I feel no ill will to anyone either.I could pretend to have the pope on my serious prayers list if you want, but then - the ill homeless person who isn't mentioned on tv is also going to die isn't he. And does mike give a sh**? Mike's honest enough to admitt that he's a relative fool who probably won't give a sh** unless he sees a two dollars per month sentimental appeal for homeless people on tv. If he doesn't then he'll be an ignorant ass like he is most of the time. Listen, some problems aren't our problem, like the supernova in space. It's a complicated issue this one, and I may appear cold, I'm truly not, I'm just the same as the other people who apply meaning when it suits them.So, yes - I do have a genuine love for babas though. "Mymonkeys" avatar has brought me joy because the baby reminds me of God and the child looks happy.I am the guiltiest. I mean, I've prayed for Brad Pitt. I've prayed for anyone and everyone, but I am consciously aware that the prayer will mean little because I know it will mean little to God because the prayer meant little to me. My spirit feels little when it's none of my business, but when I pray with fervor then I know that it's where God will be moving.In all honesty, I'd rather contribute something to a poor and hungred baba than pray for him to some extent. Because there are so many millions like him/her that the difference is small, and I might only feed one belly. But Christ said there would be sorrows and that we would always have the poor, and to love my neighbour. So it's a command to help practically aswell. I tell you what, if we were both at this moment not taking part in this forum and fed a belly each, do the math, how many bellies would be empty if the whole forum ACTUALLY cared?(edit; I concede that we do care somewhat for world events, I meant if the forum actually acted on loving their neighbour more than other activities)/This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-31-2005 11:19 AM

You can guaruntee I'll smile everytime.

Shraff, specific requests aren't post-hoc. Remember that.Why would Thor answer my prayer if I asked Jesus Christ to heal me according to the way the bible states?Call him Thor or big-omnipotent dudeguy if you want. For now I'll accept that "God" has answered my prayers how I specifically requested.If someone asks for healing from a disease and they are healed, or the blind see then that's not caused by something else because that's just ignoring the fact that prayer has been succesfully answered. I've seen it many times, unbelievers simply say "oh well" when they observe an occurence, and carry on with their day.I suggest no prayer result would convince you becaue you arrive with doubt, the opposite to what is required according to the bible.If the bible says do this that and the other in order to bake a cake, and it's correct when you endeavour to do this that and the other, then it is highly logical that the God of the bible is real. Listen Shraff, chance can't allow anything without a Creator to create chance. Chance has never done anything, let alone answer my prayers. Chance and naturalism say that we went from primordial sludge to full eyed-critter via naturalistic mindless means.Chance didn't answer my prayer, God did. Chance didn't make me, God did, and chance isn't why there is a universe. That is just a farsical idea.

That's because there are no other factors. Thor and other gods are all false idol images people bowed to in the past. A gold bull is an inanimate object, on the LORD God Yahweh created the heavens and earth, and there are no gods beside him.It's evasive for you to try and get me into questioning other religions when we are dealing with the truth of Christ here. Probably the latter. I've prayed when having a cold twice.The first time I declared the throat gone in ten seconds, and then the nose in another ten, while counting down in my mind I literally was improving.Another time I got angry because I was having a run of colds but basically just putting up with them because they are only colds afterall, but I got angry as I had a sore throat, and requested healing and in the morning it was gone. In honesty, the declaration of ten seconds was most impressive but God doesn't particularly work via any rules. People can have slow or fast healings. It wasn't Thor though because Jesus Christ is my intercessor to God and is the only personal saviour who has proved that he is God by living as a man and dying for our sins. Thor is fantasy Shraff. Christ liveth. But what is this chance? How do I know what chance would allow? How can I trust chance when you teach me that we came from primordial soup because of it and that intrinsical designs came from it? It seems you'll allow chance to take the glory no matter what happens.Why should I do your experiment though Shraff? I'd only do it if I had doubt, and I don't have enough doubt to do it. That's because my specific prayers have been answered which shows that God is infact answering them, and my perception of God is that he answers my prayers according to how the bible says he would. But I know that my prayers have been answered, you just don't believe they have.These experiments of doubt show that your doubt is great and you cannot possibly achieve anything by doing a prayer test. Christ could do "no miracles there"(similar words) in his hometown, because the people's unbelief was GREAT.Beware of the yeast of the pharisees. Shraff, I shall not tempt the Lord my God to do prayer tricks to satisfy my doubts. Did not satan also ask Christ to make a stone bread?I am not fooling myself because I can't heal myself, get out of situations that don't bare my influence, or have any influence on situations that are out of my hand yet I have prayed about. My prayers are too great a tribute to the Lord God, Creator of heavens and earth.PS> What do you mean by that I haven't changed?This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-31-2005 07:56 PM

Welcome StormWolfx2x. (And also Monk aswell as other newbies like the topic maker)I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are just generalizing pertaining to people you've came across rather than falling for the assumption that Christians only pray for themselves, and that's all their prayers involve, all of the time, for personal gain.Infact, I would say that I rarely aske for anything in prayer, and that about 80% of my prayers are gratitude and reflection. Certainly I haven't made many request lately. But sure, there probably are people like you described but not a lot are like this IMHO. It's a bit of a misconception, because infact atheists usually only mention prayers at boards like these, when they involve "hits" or "misses". So infact from my perspective, I'm kind of doomed to a slippery slope of misconceptions already prepared for me when I go into debate. At the moment we're discussing prayers for things we hear about on the news. (about 4% of my prayers)I don't think anyone except me and Riverrat, and Monk have really understood this situation properly. Monk makes this excellent point which I should have noticed before getting in Shraff's trap of prayer experiments, which she always seeks to lead me into.

What are the chances of a primordial sludge bringing about complex cells, according to these mathematical tools?This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-02-2005 06:41 AM

Hah. SO I'm a liar. Oh no, I know Shraff, I know already I just don't say. I know I know, our memories seldom tell us accurately what actually happened and people have confirmation bias and post-hoc. I listen to all of you, I really do. But what you don't realise is that these incidents outweigh all of these things you teach me. Does the list include the blind seeing? Why would it if I said that experiments bring doubt and that God won't play lab-rat for Shraff?Which is more likely, that my prayer was answered and I was healed in ten seconds, (as I declared), for each symptom, by Christ whom I believe in, according to the scriptures, OR that it was what chance allowed for AND my own immune system AND my own memory and confirmation bias AND another god.Notice how many unecessary entities you induce in order to explain the situation, yet you in no way and NEVER EVER suggest that God answered my prayer, despite this being the simplest explanation and answering for the inexplicable nature of the events? But Shraff I know that I can know things without evidence. I know that cake tastes good, but another person says it doesn't according to his taste buds. I know that I am saying words in my mind but people only believe I am because they also feel this. And don't distract me Shraff, I'm not talking about brain waves proving it, because I never needed evidence to "know" I was talking in my mind.I know my prayers are answered but I admitt having no evidence save my witness, which is true. God is also my witness, and he didn't need any evidence when he created the universe.So Shraff, I do know my prayers are answered specifically, and any chump could know that a specific occurence of strange request cannot be accounted for by chance. What do I have to put up? Evidence? This is F&B, and it was YOU who wanted to get into this whole prayer experiment thing, which is science. Remember when I said that this would not make good science because; So I can not no from misses, but from my ideology, I CAN from HITS, but the first paragraph explains why you (skeptic) can't accept this, yet I ADMITT that this means it's bad science to examine prayers, because of these factors.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-02-2005 07:03 AM

You're trying to put the hits in with the misses Shraff.The things I wish for seldom happen, unless I pray to God, according to how Christ said pray.One thing you misse way back in this thread, is where I told the true nature of prayer, and how the world has it backwards, (like it does with everything, because satan rules it).Think.God says have faith and that we should praye according to his will.Society thinks he should end poordom and cater to every whim or he doesn't exist (your will)God says we are created.Society says we are chance.You're still looking at prayer from a perspective of "all faiths". But you won't understand OUR prayers untill you look at it from our perspective.

No they're not. Because; LOL! The papers. Do you think God is going to turn up in the papers? Ahahahaha, I never found any truth in those papers Shraff. Oh dear girly!Hey Shraff, You're being impossible because you haven't fully understood the true nature of what we're dealing with.Science arrives with doubt, which according to God is exactly what you don't need, and infact is the core element of disbelief in God. Jesus could do no miracles in his home town because of doubt. His disciples couldn't force out a demon when without Jesus.Also, you don't look for instances in which faith-events would produce miracles. I've seen photographic proof of miracles. Names and adresses? WHy would I collect them when watching this stuff on tv? That's why you ask, because it would be difficuilt to find these evidences. Well, that's fair enough. I can understand why you won't want to be thought of as gullible. EVen the bible teaches to be on guard for false prophets. It is.Also, u have ignored my logical truths in this topic. I say that misses are bad but you're inconsistent. You will suggest anything in order to answer fro hits. Like multiple big-bangs, invoking answers, whereas the answer is clearly biblical because it SHOWS me how to be healed, I followed that path and so we now know the witness is true. If an explanation meets all the evidence and explains everything, then it's a good one, as, well, it explains it. Or are you saying that evolution isn't a good explanation?This is your own methodo scientifico probably. Your fear is that I am correct!If it explains it then it's the best explanation with the least entities. I've read the principle of parsimony before you told me anything SHraffy so I'm not lying. I read it, and I can see that God is not simplistic, but rather the true and simplest explanation.I'm not dumb enough to buy into the whole, "God is more complicated" scenario. I'll leave that for other people to fall for. Or is he simplistic? Hmmmm. That's my little scientist. SSHHHHHRAAAAAAAFFFFFFFFFFF> You're not obtuse, don't pretend to be!!!!!!!!!!!!!I said that I KNOW, (I have the knowledge) that I speak in my mind BEFORE and WITHOUT any evidence or science tests. It doesn't matter if you prove cakes taste good, or that I talk in my mind, because it's too late, I already have the knowledge. More accurately, I would say I reserve the right to say whether my own experiences were beyond chance and confirmation hoc and post bias,,blrrrr.....yawns, dies.Hah! I fear God above all else, and him breaking out upon me if I draw near to gaze.You look at this objectively. Well done but it won't work. That's why I'm here telling you it.Prayer, according to what you think it is - is not real prayer. That's my whole point in this topic. Go back and read my first few posts for an explanation of some of these things. Bye for now Shraffy. This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-03-2005 11:16 AM