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Author Topic:   If prayers go unanswered....?
jar
Member
Posts: 30980
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 181 of 201 (198357)
04-11-2005 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by clpMINI
04-11-2005 3:12 PM


Re: Moving on down the river.
Did God let you down? Did you pray incorrectly? Maybe you just didn't have enough faith?

The answer from a believer is 'NO!' to all of the above. GOD didn't let you down, you didn't pray incorrectly and it has nothing to do with how much faith you have or don't have.

You can see part of this in the Lord's Prayer, something we do take seriously.

Right up there in the beginning, right after the salutation, it says "Thy will be done".

When you ask for something specific, the request always contains that proviso, "Thy will be done". If you don't get the answer you wanted, then it's because that was not GOD's will.

Why it wasn't GOD's will is something we will never know (at least in this life). But for a believer, even if we don't know or understand the reason, we know and understand that there was a reason.

God is not a Fairy Godmother, bringing us glass slippers and turning pumpkins into carriages. Life is not a fairy tale, it is real and immediate. And we are not all-knowing, we are not aware of all the factors in any event or incident, or capable of making decisions where our own best interests play no part.

We will likely question such incidents, bewail and bemoan them, perhaps even curse them, but if we are true to our faith, we will accept them.

How do you reconcile, if you claim God is accepting your praise, listening when you just want to talk, and even at times offering up guidance, but when you ask for something tangible and extremely important to you, God shrugs you off?

There's nothing to reconcile. GOD did not simply shrug us off.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by clpMINI, posted 04-11-2005 3:12 PM clpMINI has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by clpMINI, posted 04-11-2005 5:54 PM jar has responded

  
clpMINI
Member (Idle past 3328 days)
Posts: 116
From: Richmond, VA, USA
Joined: 03-22-2005


Message 182 of 201 (198376)
04-11-2005 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by jar
04-11-2005 4:05 PM


Re: Moving on down the river.
If you don't get the answer you wanted, then it's because that was not GOD's will.

Then what was the point in asking in the first place? If you ask God in a prayer to keep your loved one safe...any outcome can be considered God's will. You pray and you like the outcome, or you pray and dislike the outcome...either way its God's will and whether you prayed for something or not doesn't matter.

Why it wasn't GOD's will is something we will never know (at least in this life). But for a believer, even if we don't know or understand the reason, we know and understand that there was a reason.

God is mysterious and we can't understand his master plan? That goes back to the old saying that (and I'm paraphrasing)...God made us smart enough to know there is an answer, but not smart enough to figure out what the answer actually is.

In an earlier post in this thread we were commenting on 'bad' things happening as being just a natural part of life. But here you seem to be stating that the 'bad' thing would be all part of God's unknowable will. Is this correct?

What is the point of praying for something specific? Or for that matter what would be the point of the other types of prayers as well?


It's not selling out if nobody's buying.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by jar, posted 04-11-2005 4:05 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 04-11-2005 7:27 PM clpMINI has responded
 Message 185 by LinearAq, posted 04-12-2005 10:03 AM clpMINI has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 183 of 201 (198381)
04-11-2005 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by nator
04-08-2005 5:57 PM


Re: blood in a book
You were on my mind when considering how "chance" could be an answer.(I had to give you a chance) There is my own blood in my bible, a sign for a covenant between me and God, that says I am God's. Every so often I ask if I am still written in the book, when I am concerned, and I open the book on the page of blood. That happened twice before when I asked for it.

So when I read as usual, I said to myself, "now if I am fair to Shraff, I will seek this and if it appears not, then was it down to chance, and will I ignore the "miss" and be guilty of confirmation bias by explaining it away, as Shraff said?". I opened the bible (as I was seeking the page firstly), and there was the blood.

Ofcourse, I can't prove this to you, but can you see why it is difficuilt to buy your explanation? This is seemingly beyond coincidence is it not?

I have opened it on that page when NOT asking, and I've seen it quite a few times when not asking. I'm telling you this last part so that I withold no evidence from you. That's as honest and as objective as I can get.

You said my witness is evidence. It is, everything I've said is true. I am also aware that you believe in memory not being accurate? I will leave you to consider how much of a factor that is.

Does this help? It seems to be what you have sought me to do, some kind of "experiment" if you like.

It might seem almost silly this instance from a point of view of a person reading this post, but it was impressive when it happened I can tell you, because I personally conclude it is beyond chance if it happens every time I ask God. I mean, we're not talking about one blink for yes and two for no. We're talking about one page out of thousands.

This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-11-2005 05:35 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by nator, posted 04-08-2005 5:57 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by nator, posted 04-15-2005 2:56 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30980
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 184 of 201 (198383)
04-11-2005 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by clpMINI
04-11-2005 5:54 PM


From the viewpoint of a believer.
Then what was the point in asking in the first place? If you ask God in a prayer to keep your loved one safe...any outcome can be considered God's will. You pray and you like the outcome, or you pray and dislike the outcome...either way its God's will and whether you prayed for something or not doesn't matter.

Not really.

It's not that GOD has a plan and everything happens in some pre-ordained fashion.

What happens, particularly things like wars, are things we do. It's not GOD, it's you and me, the folk down the street, the folk across the water, that create most of the problems in the world.

But here you seem to be stating that the 'bad' thing would be all part of God's unknowable will. Is this correct?

Not at all. Bad things like desease and accident are simply natural. But most bad things are things WE do.

The issue is that we can't know enough to make the right decision. It's not that there's a plan, it's that we are like children. When a child gets that first crush, the big love bug, the parent may well know all about the pain that's to come, but the person involved could never see it.

God is mysterious and we can't understand his master plan?

Well GOD is unknowable by us mere humans if you mean to know and understand Him completely. Maybe someday we'll get there but not for quite a while. ;)

It's not the master plan that we can't understand, that's pretty simple. It's that we can't see all of the ramifications of any event or decision. It's not just unintended consequences, it's a simple lack of data and the ability to collate all the data if we did have it.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by clpMINI, posted 04-11-2005 5:54 PM clpMINI has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by clpMINI, posted 04-12-2005 11:34 AM jar has responded

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 2839 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 185 of 201 (198534)
04-12-2005 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by clpMINI
04-11-2005 5:54 PM


Still has a purpose
clpMINI,

Maybe this is a little preachy,

Then what was the point in asking in the first place? If you ask God in a prayer to keep your loved one safe...any outcome can be considered God's will. You pray and you like the outcome, or you pray and dislike the outcome...either way its God's will and whether you prayed for something or not doesn't matter.

Sure...no matter what happens, it's God's will.
Have you considered that the purpose behind God's requirement of prayer was not for the person or situation that you pray for? Perhaps it is for the person doing the praying. Helping you acknowledge that God is with you in the situation. Helping you realize that you can't do everything and sometimes have to just wait for an outcome. Helping you accept His outcome no matter what it is.

Jesus prayed in the garden that if there were another way He would like to avoid the cross, however He was reconciled to do God's will. Even Jesus was in need of God. He acknowledged and accepted that even in his darkest hour.

All the other forms of prayer of which Jar told you, are about helping and changing you.

Prayers of Thanksgiving: God doesn't need your thanksgiving. He is GOD! He knows you need to acknowledge and give in to Him. To understand and accept your position in this universe of His.

Prayers for guidance: Well that's obviously for your well-being.

Prayers for conversation: Again, acknowledgement of God but making it more personal, accepting God as a friend. Helps with your comfort level in the presence of God.

What makes prayer for a particular situation different?

This realization that the prayer is for you, does not release you from doing everything in your power to affect the situation. It just changes your attitude about the situation.

Character is not measured from the situation, but from the reaction to the situation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by clpMINI, posted 04-11-2005 5:54 PM clpMINI has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by clpMINI, posted 04-12-2005 12:02 PM LinearAq has not yet responded

    
clpMINI
Member (Idle past 3328 days)
Posts: 116
From: Richmond, VA, USA
Joined: 03-22-2005


Message 186 of 201 (198588)
04-12-2005 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by jar
04-11-2005 7:27 PM


Re: From the viewpoint of a believer.
I agree that there is no predetermination. But being of God's will and being predetermined are not the same thing. And following from what you said in post 181:

When you ask for something specific, the request always contains that proviso, "Thy will be done". If you don't get the answer you wanted, then it's because that was not GOD's will.

Why it wasn't GOD's will is something we will never know (at least in this life). But for a believer, even if we don't know or understand the reason, we know and understand that there was a reason.

Everything in every situation can be explained away as God's will. No matter how wonderful or how horrific...God's will. If you pray for something and get it (or don't get it)...God's will. And we can't comprehend God or God's will.

So if you're praying and asking for a specific, are you hoping to persuade God to help you out, or are you hoping that God's will and your prayer happen to jive?


It's not selling out if nobody's buying.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 04-11-2005 7:27 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 04-12-2005 11:45 AM clpMINI has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30980
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 187 of 201 (198595)
04-12-2005 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by clpMINI
04-12-2005 11:34 AM


Re: From the viewpoint of a believer.
So if you're praying and asking for a specific, are you hoping to persuade God to help you out, or are you hoping that God's will and your prayer happen to jive?

Both and neither. As a human you of course want a desired out come. That's simple human nature. But there are additional levels involved.

First there is an acknowledgement that you are not capable of understanding all of the implications of what you ask. It's like the child who wants more ice cream. From the child's perspective there is absolutely no reason not to have the fifth bowl of Cherry Garcia, but the adult knows that the result will be pain and suffering later.

Second, the prayer is a request for understanding if possible. Again, we may or may not be capable of understanding the answer. Even if we are given the answer, it may well lead to an unending series of "Why's".

Finally, there is the underlying hope that we will be able to accept the result, even when we do not fully understand the reasoning.

Please understand that I am only responding as a believer. Some of what I say may well seem strange, perhaps even illogical. I am not trying to persuade you to accept anything I say, but only hope that it will help you understand the mindset that leads to such beliefs.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by clpMINI, posted 04-12-2005 11:34 AM clpMINI has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Loudmouth, posted 04-19-2005 4:35 PM jar has responded

  
clpMINI
Member (Idle past 3328 days)
Posts: 116
From: Richmond, VA, USA
Joined: 03-22-2005


Message 188 of 201 (198607)
04-12-2005 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by LinearAq
04-12-2005 10:03 AM


Re: Still has a purpose
LinearAq,

Hi there.

Sure...no matter what happens, it's God's will.

I just talked a little about this in may last response to jar, look at that and I think you'lll see where I'm coming from on that.

Have you considered that the purpose behind God's requirement of prayer was not for the person or situation that you pray for? Perhaps it is for the person doing the praying. Helping you acknowledge that God is with you in the situation. Helping you realize that you can't do everything and sometimes have to just wait for an outcome.

I would think that the whole point of praying for something specific is admitting that you can't do it all yourself. And that the only way you think that the outcome you want will occur is if there is some devine intervention. All that stuff is on the table before you even started praying, otherwise why would you even think to?

What makes prayer for a particular situation different?

Because you have a pretty good idea of what you want to happen, and a pretty good reason to think that praying might make that happen. And I would think that the whole idea of believing, and having faith, is expecting prayers like these to be answered. If you simply think that no matter what happens, it's God's will, then to me, it doesn't seem like it makes any difference whether you asked (prayed) for anything or not.

You're praying that your mom's brain tumor goes away is abit different from saying "Hey God nice talkin' to ya"


It's not selling out if nobody's buying.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by LinearAq, posted 04-12-2005 10:03 AM LinearAq has not yet responded

  
Citizzzen
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 201 (199598)
04-15-2005 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Monk
04-11-2005 3:48 PM


Sorry I'm late, I was paying Caesar
Thank you for the recap, it brought your example into better focus.

"...I was trying to offer a scenario where all is not what it seems and that some events in life appear to be more than random chance. I do this in order to open the possibility that these events do not always have a plausible, identifiable, physical cause..."

I think your example was a good way to demonstrate that sometimes things occur, and they can not be explained. However, when this happens, people will speculate about an explanation. Speculation leads to hypothesis, which leads to conditions that can be tested.

At this point, you have to ask, has any hypothetical supernatural explanation ever been proven to be true, or even resisted efforts to prove that it is false? I do not know of one. In fact, James Randi has a standing offer of $1,000,000.00 for verifiable proof of any supernatural force. He has never had to pay up.

I realize that not every phenomenon (prayer, for example) has ever been proven or "disproven" conclusively. However, no supernatural occurrence has ever been proven to be real. Also, real world explanations continue to be found for potential supernatural events. Until at least one supernatural occurrence is ever proven, I think skeptics are right to discount supernatural hypothesis outright, and search only for real world reasons.

"...For atheist, the quest for a physical explanation has no end. If one is not found, then the argument is simply that “some day” it will be. Believers get to a point where potential physical explanations have been stretched beyond limits and a supernatural cause begs to be recognized..."

Again, no supernatural occurrence has ever been proven, and if real world explanations have ultimately been found for many events. Based on this, which outlook makes more sense? Let me use another, non-religious, example.

I watched a special on Discovery (?) about a UFO sighting in the Southwest. Lights had hung in the sky apparently motionless for almost a half hour, and then just disappeared. The lights had been seen by thousands of people, and there was no immediate explanation. Ufologists looked into the event and, surprise, decided that they were extra-terrestrial in nature. Ultimately it was shown to be flares used by the military, which eventually dropped behind a ridge line and "disappeared". My point is, the more open people are to supernatural occurrences, the more likely they are to find them.

"...I was trying to show this using the hypothesis as foundation and also to show how it is possible that perfectly sane rational people come to a belief in God and that, in doing so, they have not suddenly become delusional..."

I agree. But nowadays "perfectly sane rational people" develop belief in Allah, Krishna, God, and many other deities. In times past "perfectly sane rational people" believed in Zeus, Thor, and Apollo. If you don't propose that all of the deities exist (or existed) then aren't some of them, if not delusional, coming to an incorrect conclusion?

"...If...events can be shown to be beyond random chance...and if the cause has been explored extensively and no viable physical explanation presents itself then causes outside of nature would, to some people, be feasible..."

Well, to bring things back to prayer, are you suggesting that most Christians explore every possible "real world" reason for the appearance of prayers being answered, before they decide that prayer works? I would argue that, much like the Ufologists, most Christians have already made up their minds.

I would bet the same is true for religious belief in general. Some people have experimented with various religions, before choosing the one that "works" for them. However, my experience is that most people simply adopt the dominant religion of their family/neighborhood/country.

“…I was dealing with a personal communication from God that I found impossible to deny…”

I am curious why you assumed you were being contacted by God, as opposed to Allah, or Krishna, or some other deity.

Citizzzen


The message is ended, go in peace.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Monk, posted 04-11-2005 3:48 PM Monk has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Monk, posted 04-15-2005 3:20 PM Citizzzen has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 190 of 201 (199610)
04-15-2005 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by mike the wiz
04-11-2005 6:34 PM


Re: blood in a book
Mike, there are perhaps a few mundane things affecting the outcome which you might not have considered...

How many times have you opened your bible to the page with the blood compared to the number of times you have opened the bible and it did not open at that page?

Also, could it be that the page with the blood on it is slightly wrinkled or thickened, so the book "wants" to open at that page a bit more than in other places? Sort of like a dog ear? Has the book been laid flat with that page open for a greater length of time than it has laid open in other places, so the spine has a "memory"?

How, exactly do you open the bible...I mean, how do you physically open it? Do you do it with both hands, one hand, drop it on the desk, etc.?

If you wanted to test this, I would standardise the way you open the book in such a way that you affect it in exactly the same way every time.

I would also find a book of similar page count and paper weight, put some blood on it like you did the Bible, in the same place in the pages.

Now, do a bunch of trials. Open the books exactly the same way a couple of hundred times, and record how many hits you get between the two books, and within each book.

Then, calculate this against the chances of this happening by chance alone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by mike the wiz, posted 04-11-2005 6:34 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by mike the wiz, posted 04-18-2005 10:59 AM nator has responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 191 of 201 (199613)
04-15-2005 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Monk
04-11-2005 3:48 PM


Re: Tangent with a purpose
quote:
For atheist, the quest for a physical explanation has no end. If one is not found, then the argument is simply that “some day” it will be. Believers get to a point where potential physical explanations have been stretched beyond limits and a supernatural cause begs to be recognized.

1) It does not logically follow that because we have no naturalistic explanation for something means that there is a supernatural cause.

It simply means that we do not know the cause.

2) Lack of physical, naturalistic evidence for some phenomena does not constitute positive evidence for the supernatural.

It simply means we do not know.

3) The record over all of the centuries of religious explanations for naturalistic phenomena is that the vast majority of what used to be attributed to the supernatural is now explainable by natural means. Gods and demons used to be directly responsible for anything that we did not understand, but science has consistently been able to explain most of there phenomena.

The track record of science for being able to consistently, reliably, predictably explain natural phenomena is very good, where religious or supernatural explanations have consistently been shown to be wrong, over and over.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Monk, posted 04-11-2005 3:48 PM Monk has not yet responded

    
Monk
Member (Idle past 2087 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 192 of 201 (199615)
04-15-2005 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Citizzzen
04-15-2005 2:16 PM


Paying Caesar
quote:
I think your example was a good way to demonstrate that sometimes things occur, and they can not be explained. However, when this happens, people will speculate about an explanation. Speculation leads to hypothesis, which leads to conditions that can be tested.

Well, when the hypothesis deals with a scientific issue then yes, it can be tested. We aren’t dealing with a scientific issue. Supernatural issues are outside the realm of scientific explanation. It is difficult to test an hypothesis that includes a series of events that are rare occurences.

quote:
At this point, you have to ask, has any hypothetical supernatural explanation ever been proven to be true, or even resisted efforts to prove that it is false? I do not know of one. In fact, James Randi has a standing offer of $1,000,000.00 for verifiable proof of any supernatural force. He has never had to pay up.

True, no argument here. The only observation I can make is that they are supernatural events and these are very rare occurrences to the public at large manifesting in some form of a public spectacle. I have no idea how often God intervenes in such a way as to appear miraculous to those who pray.

quote:
I realize that not every phenomenon (prayer, for example) has ever been proven or "disproven" conclusively. However, no supernatural occurrence has ever been proven to be real. Also, real world explanations continue to be found for potential supernatural events. Until at least one supernatural occurrence is ever proven, I think skeptics are right to discount supernatural hypothesis outright, and search only for real world reasons.

Again, your points are completely valid. No argument here

quote:
But nowadays "perfectly sane rational people" develop belief in Allah, Krishna, God, and many other deities. In times past "perfectly sane rational people" believed in Zeus, Thor, and Apollo. If you don't propose that all of the deities exist (or existed) then aren't some of them, if not delusional, coming to an incorrect conclusion?

I can’t speak to the sanity of people in times past. Surely many were sane and also believed in a variety of deities. I also do not know if they came to the right or wrong conclusions.

quote:
Well, to bring things back to prayer, are you suggesting that most Christians explore every possible "real world" reason for the appearance of prayers being answered, before they decide that prayer works? I would argue that, much like the Ufologists, most Christians have already made up their minds.

Not at all. The world is filled with all sorts of gullible people. Many Christians would not even begin to look for real world explanations. They want their prayers to be answered by God and not in some simple “real world” way.

These individuals have their mind made up the instant they get a positive result from praying. But not all Christians are wired that way. Then there are still other individuals who believe the most bizarre things. The world is filled with these loonies.

quote:
I would bet the same is true for religious belief in general. Some people have experimented with various religions, before choosing the one that "works" for them. However, my experience is that most people simply adopt the dominant religion of their family/neighborhood/country.

That’s probably true for most people and it was for me. Many people don’t bother to question it. It’s easier to just fall in line with the family. Others have searched for questions and eventually became perfectly content with the theology of their childhood. I wasn’t and found a religion that made sense to me.

quote:
I am curious why you assumed you were being contacted by God, as opposed to Allah, or Krishna, or some other deity.

In the Old Testament, God referred to himself as “I AM” or Lord. When He became incarnate, He wanted to be called Jesus. I’m a Christian, so when I pray, I use either of those names. Does He still refer to Himself that way? I don’t know. Maybe He likes to be called Allah instead of Lord. If it’s important to Him, I’m sure He will let me know.

This message has been edited by Monk, Fri, 04-15-2005 01:23 PM


My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein
This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Citizzzen, posted 04-15-2005 2:16 PM Citizzzen has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 193 of 201 (200087)
04-18-2005 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by nator
04-15-2005 2:56 PM


Re: blood in a book
[insert red-faced smiley]/ :eek:

Erm, shraff, *hah*, *yeah* - *touches face to comfort himself*.

I feel a total ASS.

That's exactly what it was. I have to confess now that I've been fooling myself about this, without checking. Thinking about it logically, it makes sense now, in that when I randomnly opened my bible to put my blood on it, it would naturally open on the page which has a "memory" so to speak (as you referred to).

You see, I tested like you said, and it kept opening on that page.

So first it seemed way beyond chance but now it seems to favour a chance answer. Which is kind of annoying. I don't know whether God would want me to ignore my doubts and believe it anyway. Maybe my doubt caused it like my faith caused the hits? :confused: Well, good job my faith never depended on such things.

But then, has it recently became easy to open that page? I've tried to be honest as possible, but I honestly don't recall it landed on that page all that much in times past, except for when I asked.

You could put that down to me ignoring it except when I got hits I suppose.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by nator, posted 04-15-2005 2:56 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by nator, posted 04-18-2005 11:24 AM mike the wiz has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 194 of 201 (200092)
04-18-2005 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by mike the wiz
04-18-2005 10:59 AM


mike the wiz discovers empiricism!
Well, mike, I am really, truly impressed that you tested your claim. Most people wouldn't, they would be too afraid or insecure.

I have to niggle you just a little bit, though, by quoting you:

quote:
Well, good job my faith never depended on such things.

If you are honestly saying that your faith doesn't depend upon such things, then why do you constantly present them as some kind of reason that you believe, or proof of god, or something?

Anyway, don't feel like an ass. You should feel proud of yourself for challenging yourself and taking a chance. Not many would.

(It's too bad you didn't have a "real" phenomena. We could have both been famous and rich!)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by mike the wiz, posted 04-18-2005 10:59 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by mike the wiz, posted 04-19-2005 5:57 AM nator has not yet responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 195 of 201 (200301)
04-19-2005 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by nator
04-18-2005 11:24 AM


faith increase from mustard seed
If you are honestly saying that your faith doesn't depend upon such things, then why do you constantly present them as some kind of reason that you believe, or proof of god, or something?

Well, I suppose that these things increase my faith, or did increase it.

When I was 17 and below, I just had a theism, yet believed in Christ. I just believed there was God, but disbelieved that he could do anything, or atleast I didn't take it that seriously that he actually would because this is reality to most, right?. But later I really believed he could answer prayers and requests, so I produced the substance of all things hoped for.

No, if favours chance this blood on the page thing, but I still believe God answered, because God has worked with chance in the bible. Joseph!! And his whole entrance into Egypt worked off of chance events.

I still concede that it's up to you whether to believe God is/isn't necessary(pertaining to the blood circumstance), and that you might think he doesn't answer my prayers, but I believe he does.

So, I've always believed because of Jesus Christ more than anything/one else. If I had no more prayer hits for fifty years, I think I would still believe. So maybe it will be hard for you to de-convert me eh Shraffy? :)

This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-19-2005 10:26 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by nator, posted 04-18-2005 11:24 AM nator has not yet responded

  
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