If prayers go unanswered....?

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Why do you want that information? You don't think the majority of people over the centuries have been people of faith?

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I'm just trying to understand exactly what you mean by "people of faith", and also what you mean by "bright minds". I have always been talking only about "bright minds" who have been involved in producing medical advances.For example, your originaly claimed the following WRT the bright minds who have been involed in producing medical advances:

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But what I can say is that over all those generations right up to the present day, the vast majority of those bright minds were believers who not only had a profound respect for God but also for the majesty of His creations.

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Now, I have shown that a significant portion of people involved in producing medical advances for the last 100 years or so, the scientists who do the basic research from which our advances originate, have not been believers at all.For you to claim that the "vast majority" of "bright minds" involved in producing medical advances have always "not only had a profound respect for God but also for the majesty of His creations", I think you need to show that this is actually what the "vast majority" specifically believed.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-05-2005 08:28 AM

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Is there a problem with other peoples personal beliefs where they do not impinge on others? If they believe that GOD helped or even was the primary cause of the result, does it have effect beyond their belief system?

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I actually do believe that there is a general social detrimental effect to discounting human achievement and instead giving most of the credit to one's personal deity in cases such as this.I believe that it fostors the attitude of preferring to "pray to make things better" and "giving it up to god" instead of thinking hard and making every effort to figure out solutions to problems, and taking action.

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Try looking through their eyes and appreciate that you are seeing people that have come through a crisis, are perhaps not at their most rational, and that are speaking purely from emotion.

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...and every time I have been in such a situation (and I have been, more than just a few times) I have been so grateful to the doctors and everyone else who's expertise and skill helped my loved one to recover. AND I've been plenty emotional.And it's not just those people. Inevitably Oprah or some news anchor says "It's a miracle", too.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-05-2005 08:43 AM

Shraff, where's your evidence to back up your claims?How do you not know that they did thank the doctors aswell as thanking God?If you say you haven't heard of miracle cases, then how is it you're complaining about them? I guess you HAVE heard of miraculous claims afterall.Don't forget that I am Columbo, and can obviously deduce.

I never claimed medical advances exclusively nor did I use the term "always".Why does the determination of the type of faith, or worship services, or which sect or denomination these belivers were part of have any impact on whether they were part of a larger group of people who believed in God?I mean isn't is suffice to say they were believers without determining their specific type of worship?

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

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Shraff, where's your evidence to back up your claims?

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Uh, I watch the television news occasionally, and I see the people saying "Its a miracle" all the time.

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How do you not know that they did thank the doctors aswell as thanking God?

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I'm sure they did. It's not what is reported, however.

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If you say you haven't heard of miracle cases, then how is it you're complaining about them? I guess you HAVE heard of miraculous claims afterall.

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Yeah. Every case is a miracle case these days.How about you reply to my post with the substantive questions you say you would love to answer instead of dicking around?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-05-2005 09:02 AM

What if you were hallucinating during your deduction, just like you hallucinated that you were slapped?

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I never claimed medical advances exclusively nor did I use the term "always".

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I have only ever been talking about medical advances, and since I brought up the issue, I get to define the argument. Seriously, It is true that most people, including the brightest minds, have been believers in some sort of unseen supernatural power.

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Why does the determination of the type of faith, or worship services, or which sect or denomination these belivers were part of have any impact on whether they were part of a larger group of people who believed in God?

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Well, not everyone believes in the same way, do they? You are the one saying that the vast majority have "profound respect" for God, etc. Those are specific claims about the nature of their belief, which I think you should at least try to back up.If you want to make a very vague claim such as the one I made above, that's different.

Hi Pink, sorry if it seems I've been avoiding questions lately but this isn't question a mike thread anyway . Tell Shraff that if a witness is evidence then she must look at the Gospel as evidence. If not then we can know thing swithout evidence.I deduce that you know a relative of yours is deluded. Did you require evidence to know this?

True, not everyone who believes, believes in the same way, but they still fundamentally believe. Is it not possible to categorize people into one of two categories: those that do and those that do not believe?If it is possible to do so, then I would surmise that those people who do believe have a respect for God. Perhaps not necessarily a "profound" respect but still at its core a respect nonetheless. Would this be a fair statment?

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

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If you say you haven't heard of miracle cases, then how is it you're complaining about them? I guess you HAVE heard of miraculous claims afterall.

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I did a search on "miracle" on Yahoo News, and 8,900 hits came back.They refer to sports team victories, medical and disaster survival stories, tales of items found, descriptions of products and economic conditions, and so on.What I want to know is why don't the obituaries, sports team losses, failed products, and stories of items never recovered mention that a miracle didn't occur?

If that is your belief then of course, I will accept it.I do see things slightly differently. I don't find that any of the Christians or Jews or other religios people I know closely discount human achievement. There are some like that out there but fortunately I seldom run across them. There was the incident with the kids and I have never forgiven them for that.Again, while you might believe it fostors the attitude of preferring to "pray to make things better" and "giving it up to god" instead of thinking hard and making every effort to figure out solutions to problems, I would think the number of religious based hospitals and colleges, charities and clinics would show that is not a belief held by all religious folk.But you are certainly entitled to your beliefs and I will respect them.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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True, not everyone who believes, believes in the same way, but they still fundamentally believe. Is it not possible to categorize people into one of two categories: those that do and those that do not believe?

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Yes, that is certainly possible.

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If it is possible to do so, then I would surmise that those people who do believe have a respect for God. Perhaps not necessarily a "profound" respect but still at its core a respect nonetheless. Would this be a fair statment?

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I don't know if that is a fair statement or not.We are now getting into the nature of individuals' beliefs.What do you mean by "respect for God"?

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What do you mean by "respect for God"?

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By respect, I mean someone who honors God.

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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein

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By respect, I mean someone who honors God.

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Well, what do you mean by "honors God"?See the difficulty here?

Actually, yes I did. I was given accounts of things that supposedly happened in someone's life history. The memory of several other close family members was that those accounts were false, and they all concurred and additionally could agree on what had really happened.Frankly, I remain tentative on many of the probably false memories that involve smaller details, it may simply be the case that others didn't take note and remember the details, or it was something that was kept from them.When it comes to more grandiose false memories that could not have gone unnoticed by immediate relatives, the certainty that those memories are false are much higher.My point to this whole line of discussion is that you know that you were rapidly healed as a result of prayer, but we have no way of knowing if that is the truth separate of your own claim, which is likely biased and out of touch with reality (not an insult - this would apply to just about anyone, particularly in an intense moment of physical illness and spiritual pleading). Unfortunately I have a problem with that as well - the reasoning of "I must believe to see the evidence, but I must look at evidence to believe."Evidence must stand separate of faith; otherwise it ceases to be evidence.