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Author Topic:   If prayers go unanswered....?
Monk
Member (Idle past 2088 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 121 of 201 (196909)
04-05-2005 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by nator
04-05-2005 10:38 AM


No
This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by nator, posted 04-05-2005 10:38 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by nator, posted 04-05-2005 11:16 AM Monk has responded

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 2088 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 122 of 201 (196917)
04-05-2005 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by pink sasquatch
04-04-2005 5:46 PM


Re: God in a bottle
pink sasquatch writes:

It has been otherwise. Clinical studies have been published demonstrating a positive effect of prayer on outcome, when the person whose outcome was in question was aware of the prayer or took part in the prayer.

I wasn't referring to noetic clinical studies but to "intercessionary" prayer studies or prayer by a group of people who are in a remote location and where the recipient is unaware of the prayer group on their behalf.

pink sasquatch writes:

In order to separate natural from supernatural effects, studies were set up where the patient and medical staff did not know who was being prayed for. In these studies no legitimate significant difference has been found yet.

That's correct and is what I was referring to.

pink sasquatch writes:

If God lets people die of disease that He would have otherwise saved, simply to avoid the possibility of registering a statistical anomaly in a small clinical trial, then God is not a very nice guy...

As I stated upthread, if we are only speaking of a statistical anomaly in a small clinical trial, then that is not going to convince any large group of people of the existence of God beyond a resonable doubt based on physical evidence, so it is inconsequential and would not cause God to act in any way other than He already is.


My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by nator, posted 04-05-2005 11:22 AM Monk has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 123 of 201 (196919)
04-05-2005 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by pink sasquatch
04-05-2005 10:39 AM


Unfortunately I have a problem with that as well - the reasoning of "I must believe to see the evidence, but I must look at evidence to believe."

That's not what I was saying though. She said my witnessing something is evidence, Cannot this also be the case with the witnesses who wrote the Gospel and bible?

But we CAN know things without evidence. I know what I done today, but I have no evidence.

I'm talking about what we DO know, not what we don't. So you relative didn't actually know it afterall. Fair enough, but that doesn't stop the 90% of cases which will be REAL knowledge. For an analogy, I'll say;

If I went and played football today and I know I got hit by the ball, but your relative also played football and said he got hit by the ball, but his story is halucination, then does his story negate my story? No. If I speak wisdom then hear me.

I would say that there is evidence of God, but your whole mindset (and Shraffs)of skeptical and dobtful enquiry is what is NOT required according to the bible.

Nevertheless, I understand why you are skeptical, but being so won't make God not exist, for the reason I mentioned early thread. The bible says we pray according to his will, but none-believers say God doesn't exist if he doesn't act according to the unbelievers criteria,(theri will, the opposite) albeit a relative criteria, because unbelievers say morals are relative.

So if you say "there's a poor man, so God doesn't exist" and the poor man says "he does too", who is right?

Do you think the pope didn't believe in God when he wasn't getting healed?

So who's right? And there is all kinds of logical pathways I have been thinking about pertaining to this topic. For example, if Crashfrog would say God doesn't exist because he's a "do nothing" God then do I exist?

Do I exist? Apparently I'm a perfectly decent chap who even doesn't do harm and seeks good for people, surely if I existed, and a whole bunch of morally inclined unbelievers and believers also existed, then there would be no poor people at all.

So, can the existence of God really be put down to what we expect of him when we have had many years to put things right?

Either we don't exist, or we're not as good and as selfless as we believe we are. That is why Christ is our righteousness, because we are not good. Christ said that only God is good, and we know that when God was on earth he fed and healed those he came across, and he still does today. So I suppose the logic of basing people's existence on whether they act according to how you think they should act is a poor one.

And so if Christ died for your sins, and for mankind, then has God not done something according to his will? But seek the kingdom of God first, and then he shall add these proves to you.

Don't be self-righteouss like those others, who think that it should be on their own terms, and say "God will give me this that and the other, and do it my way". You must surely know, that if God is - as you people remind me so very often, omnipotent etc..then his will be done on earth as it is in heaven, and ofcourse it will, because HE is GOD!

Sorry about my rant.:) Pastor mikey has finished now.

This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-05-2005 10:12 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by pink sasquatch, posted 04-05-2005 10:39 AM pink sasquatch has not yet responded

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 Message 128 by nator, posted 04-05-2005 11:25 AM mike the wiz has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 124 of 201 (196920)
04-05-2005 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by pink sasquatch
04-05-2005 10:39 AM


quote:
My point to this whole line of discussion is that you know that you were rapidly healed as a result of prayer, but we have no way of knowing if that is the truth separate of your own claim, which is likely biased and out of touch with reality (not an insult - this would apply to just about anyone, particularly in an intense moment of physical illness and spiritual pleading).

He had a cold, pink. He had a sore throat that was gone after a night's rest.

If this is what he considers "intense physical illness" then he's a pretty fragile boy. ;)


This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 125 of 201 (196921)
04-05-2005 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Monk
04-05-2005 10:39 AM


"Respecing" or "honoring" god seems to mean different things to different people, depending upon individual religious notions and the religious tradition in which they were raised.

In order to fit all of the people you want to into the group of "bright minds" who also believe in God, I think you are going to have to leave it that vague.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Monk, posted 04-05-2005 10:39 AM Monk has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 04-05-2005 11:26 AM nator has not yet responded
 Message 131 by Monk, posted 04-05-2005 11:41 AM nator has responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 126 of 201 (196922)
04-05-2005 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by nator
04-05-2005 11:12 AM


If this is what he considers "intense physical illness" then he's a pretty fragile boy

I didn't call it an "intense physical illness" lil miss Shraffy. How long must I suffer these people. Bring hither the real quote lest I have to rectify you. Canst thou possibly refute omni-mike, when thou knowest his signature?


As for me - I'm a constantly verying potentially undefined diffused mass, intrinsically shape shifting thus forming and re-forming in various gaseous nebulae. To locate my form in the context of energy, as defined by the limited homo sapien brain - one can follow the equation; energy = mike x creo speed2 = Thus we now know the relevant nature of my true being to be 90000000000000 omni-mikes ~ mike the wiz ~
This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 127 of 201 (196923)
04-05-2005 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Monk
04-05-2005 11:05 AM


Re: God in a bottle
If God lets people die of disease that He would have otherwise saved, simply to avoid the possibility of registering a statistical anomaly in a small clinical trial, then God is not a very nice guy...

quote:
As I stated upthread, if we are only speaking of a statistical anomaly in a small clinical trial, then that is not going to convince any large group of people of the existence of God beyond a resonable doubt based on physical evidence, so it is inconsequential and would not cause God to act in any way other than He already is.

But if "small statistical anomolies" continue to show up in repeated tests, larger, more meaningful tests are generally undertaken to explort the phenomena further.

At any rate, you are kind of avoiding pink's point that God might have to let people die to avoid detection.

So, what if someone did a very large study and we still saw no difference? What would you think of there being no detectable effect?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Monk, posted 04-05-2005 11:05 AM Monk has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Monk, posted 04-05-2005 11:44 AM nator has responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 128 of 201 (196924)
04-05-2005 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by mike the wiz
04-05-2005 11:09 AM


A reply to message #68, please.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by mike the wiz, posted 04-05-2005 11:09 AM mike the wiz has responded

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 Message 130 by mike the wiz, posted 04-05-2005 11:29 AM nator has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 129 of 201 (196925)
04-05-2005 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by nator
04-05-2005 11:16 AM


"Respec{t?}ing" or "honoring" god seems to mean different things to different people, depending upon individual religious notions and the religious tradition in which they were raised.

Absolutely true. Faith and belief are at the individual level.

Prayer is a personal thing, it's a discussion between friends with lots of "thank you's" and few specific requests. I guess my most common request is for GOD to sit on my daughter's shoulder and whisper quetly in her ear. I know that it's likely she will ignore the small quiet voice but it's still comforting to me to know there is someone there all the time.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 130 of 201 (196927)
04-05-2005 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by nator
04-05-2005 11:25 AM


Shraff, I already adressed those points, you simply repeated yourself in message #68. I feel I have answered these questions as best I can but that nothing will satisfy save a visit from Yahweh.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by nator, posted 04-05-2005 11:25 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by nator, posted 04-06-2005 7:58 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 2088 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 131 of 201 (196929)
04-05-2005 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by nator
04-05-2005 11:16 AM


quote:
In order to fit all of the people you want to into the group of "bright minds" who also believe in God, I think you are going to have to leave it that vague.

But any concept can be shown to be vague if it is parsed sufficiently fine. Using that technique, then it would not be possible to draw inferences on anything. Bill Clinton showed how effective this can be when he said, “It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is.”


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by nator, posted 04-05-2005 11:16 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by nator, posted 04-06-2005 7:41 AM Monk has not yet responded

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 2088 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 132 of 201 (196931)
04-05-2005 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by nator
04-05-2005 11:22 AM


Re: God in a bottle
schrafinator writes:

So, what if someone did a very large study and we still saw no difference? What would you think of there being no detectable effect?

But that's the point. There have been large intercessory prayer studies that show no appreciable effect.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by nator, posted 04-05-2005 11:22 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by nator, posted 04-06-2005 7:45 AM Monk has not yet responded
 Message 163 by nator, posted 04-08-2005 10:13 AM Monk has responded

  
clpMINI
Member (Idle past 3328 days)
Posts: 116
From: Richmond, VA, USA
Joined: 03-22-2005


Message 133 of 201 (196997)
04-05-2005 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
04-01-2005 12:09 PM


Okay. Now we are getting somewhere.
Can we look at evil as well. Do you agree that it's just part of life, a normal if regrettable part of human nature?

Sure...we can say evil is a part fo life, but I am not sure it is inevitable. But lets continue.


It's not selling out if nobody's buying.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 04-01-2005 12:09 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 04-05-2005 9:51 PM clpMINI has responded

  
Citizzzen
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 201 (197096)
04-05-2005 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Monk
04-01-2005 12:10 PM


One person's spin is another person's rinse...
"...But the same “Public Relations” can be applied to an atheist view of prayer. If a believer gets what is asked for, it is merely chance, pure coincidence. If a believer does not get what is asked for, then prayer is a futile activity. Therefore, prayer always fails. With the right spin, the atheist can never be wrong..."

No, it really depends on what is being prayed for. Complete spontaneous remission of some advanced form of cancer would not be a coincidence. Besides, my point is that whenever someone survives a tragedy, they thank God. By contrast, the families of the survivors take heart knowing that their loved one is with God, who didn't save them here on earth because they were needed in heaven. What is the atheist corollary to that?

"...Now, what is not often considered by atheists is this question. How often does a coincidence need to occur before it can begin to look no longer as a coincidence? Does the sum total of multiple coincidences occurring on a regular basis and often in quick succession constitute something other than one large coincidence? One might say no, it is just one large coincidence, until it happens to them..."

What's your coincidence? Again, show me a cancer ward where several people miraculously went into late stage remission, and I will be impresed. Show me someone with early stage breast cancer, who has surgury, undergoes chemo and then makes a full recovery, and no, I will not be seeing the hand of God at work.

Can I have an example of a set of occurences, happeningon a regular basis, in quick succession that are obviously suernatural in origin? Perhaps I missed this happenign on the evening news...

Citizzzen


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 Message 48 by Monk, posted 04-01-2005 12:10 PM Monk has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Monk, posted 04-05-2005 10:14 PM Citizzzen has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 135 of 201 (197097)
04-05-2005 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by clpMINI
04-05-2005 4:26 PM


I would agree that it's not inevitable, simply that it's a characteristic of human nature.

Let's move on to types of prayer.

There are prayers that ask for guidance.

There are prayers of thanksgiving.

Many times prayers are just conversation.

Finally their are prayers asking for some particular outcome.

Did I leave any out?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by clpMINI, posted 04-05-2005 4:26 PM clpMINI has responded

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