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Author Topic:   rapture ready
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 128 (332555)
07-17-2006 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
07-17-2006 7:23 AM


Danger?
These people are convinced that Jesus is returning soon, and this thread shows that many of the people are rather glad of the current escalation of hostility in the Middle East.
Its not that they're glad that there hostility in the Middle East, they are excited to see Jesus, as am I. They understand that we are right at the door. After Israel became a nation again, nothing else was required in eschatology for the return of Jesus. In Matthew, Jesus tells us about future events that would take place in order for us to be ready for His return. All the nations set to take place in the End of Days, spoken about in Ezekiel and Revelation are presently in conflict.
Isaiah and Ezekiel tell us that Damascus and Aroer will be utterly destoryed. It even hints at a nuclear fallout. Damascus is in Syria and Aroer is in present day Jordan. The only thing that I'm unclear on is which will hapen first, the Rapture of His Bride or the destruction of Damascus. Only time will tell. So, again, its not that anyone is overjoyed that many people will die. In fact, Rapture Ready's goal is to warn people of the impending doom that will befall all of mankind. they warn because they don't want to see people die, either physically and/or spiritually.
What I'd like to discuss is everyone's opinions on how dangerous this apocalyptic attitude is to the world.
What is dangerous about it? Suppose, just for the sake of the argument, that you could see into the future and you knew that these events would in fact take place. What would be more egregious? Allowing people to face the coming wrath or warning people to prepare their hearts for the coming wrath? What is any more dangerous about predicting that the world is becoming increasingly violent than predicting that Global Warming will have disasterous effects in the future?
Saying nothing is far more egregious if you ask me.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 07-17-2006 7:23 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by nator, posted 07-17-2006 10:30 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 128 (332559)
07-17-2006 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
07-17-2006 10:18 AM


Re: One of the greatest dangers facing mankind.
Today it is actually possible for man to bring an end to civilization, perhaps even to all life on the earth. If no other steps are taken, we must at least become aware of those people that subscribe to the apocalyptic myth and watch them like hawks. If they are in positions of power their acts and actions must be made public so that we can step in and remove them from those positions if they behave in a manner that is likely to lead to an apocalypse.
Who out there is fighting a war to bring about prophecy? You are acting like some grand conspiracy has been formulated by the heads of nations to make the Apocalypse happen.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 07-17-2006 10:18 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 07-17-2006 2:31 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 128 (332570)
07-17-2006 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
07-17-2006 2:31 PM


Re: One of the greatest dangers facing mankind.
Looks like many are. There is the sensless war in Iraq carried out by an idiot President who believes in End Time Prophecy.
First of all, the war in Iraq isn't senseless. Instead of getting a liberally bias view from a liberally indoctrinated media outlet, get the information by an Iraqi defector who was there. This is a great book, and it would be well with you to read it. Secondly, Iraq has no discernable mention in the Scriptures about fighting in any kind of Apocalyptic event. Maybe you should learn eschatology before you promote vacuous arguments that stem from your own misconceptions.
http://www.integritypublishers.com/news_article.asp?prodi...
No, it was not formulated by heads of state, but unfortunately we elected several Presidents who believed in it. We have hade several of them now and they have each moved us closer and closer to the reality of Armegeddon. And they do have the capability of making their fantasies reality.
For you to believe that anyone is prodding other nations to engage in Apocalyptic warfare is beyond stupid. All it would take is for the US to engage in nuclear warfare. So, if they want it soooo badly, then why hasn't that happened? What an idiotic remark.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 07-17-2006 2:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 07-17-2006 3:02 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 128 (332778)
07-18-2006 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
07-17-2006 3:02 PM


Re: One of the greatest dangers facing mankind.
What makes you think I speak from a liberal perspective?
Oh gee, I don't know.... Maybe its because its transparently obvious.
I'm coming from a Conservative Christian Republican perspective.
In what regard are coming from the Conservative Christian Republican view, when all of your avowed views are in total contradiction?
And as to the rantings of General Sada, much of what he claims are things that most EVERYONE except those who were wilfully ignorant were saying. It is one of the greatest testaments on just how stupid the war in Iraq was.
Have you read the book? Have you read the "ramblings" of General Sada in order that you might be able to have some basis for discrediting him, the war, and the reasons they exist?
Oh, it is more pervasive than that. It goes into the opposition to doing things to mitigate the effects of Global Warming, into our overly uncritical support for Israel, into general attitudes of resource depletion and sustainable development.
Mitigate the effects of Global Warming? Okay, I now see that I'm speaking with a conspiracy theorist who is more interested in their X-Files fantasies than with reality. So if you don't mind, I'm going back into subterranean military bunker to hatch a diabolical scheme that will further increase CO2 levels into the atmosphere. Good day sir.
Yes, we have seen nothing since Ronald Reagan, probably the most disastrous President in US history, through Bush Senior and also Junior, but short sightede end-timers.
Ronald Reagan? Yeah, damn him for giving the US the best economy its ever seen, ending the Cold War, and being an overall nice guy. I was sure Nixon was going to take the cake in your mind. I was a bit surprised to here you say Reagan. Being angry at Ronny is like hating your sweet, old grandfather.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : No reason given.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 07-17-2006 3:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-18-2006 8:15 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 51 by nator, posted 07-18-2006 9:00 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 52 by jar, posted 07-18-2006 9:14 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 55 by Coragyps, posted 07-18-2006 9:37 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 128 (332795)
07-18-2006 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by macaroniandcheese
07-17-2006 3:09 PM


Misconceptions
cntrary to what nemesis said, the truth is there is more to be done to ensure the return of christ.
Contrary to what Brenna here thinks, you can't force God to move His hand. And the Scriptures will tell you that over and over again. No one can "make" prophecy happen. Its too complicated an affair to predict what sub-series of events will take place. Its like finding a needle in a haystack. The variables required would be so great. Nobody has the ability to do that. Aside from which, if evil American presidents were out to do this, then why haven't they waged an all-out nuclear war? They haven't done that because.... it isn't true.
the temple must be rebuilt for one.
First of all, Jesus IS the Temple. I don't know if you're versed in Scripture at all, but the Chief priests scoffed at Him because He said that He would rebuild the Temple in three days. They laughed at Him because they didn't realize that He was referring to His death, burial, and resurrection. Jesus is the Temple. Secondly, I do not doubt that Revelation hints at the rebuilding of the actual Temple in Jerusalem. In fact, one can hardly see how could not spark controversy, being that Islam's 3rd holiest site, the Dome of the Rock, is situated directly over the original Temple Mount. But surely you can logically surmise that Israel has had the ability to do this for for over 70 years. If they wanted to make this happen, they've innumerable opportunities to do so. That obviously says that your Jewish conspiracy only exists in your convoluted mind.
what's fucking terrifying is that christians aren't just sitting around cheering on battle deaths (and civilian murders as well), but they are actively taking part in making this shit worse.
Brenna, what compels you to believe that Christians sit around cheering battle deaths of slain civilians, and how do they actively participae in making shit worse?
do you know how many thousands of jews they fly into israel with the hope of bringing on the end times?
No Brenna, how would we know something like that? I see that you have a Security Clearance, so if you want us to know about how teh evil Joos "fly in thousands to bring about the end times," then you are going to have to tell us all about it.
the truth is that israel is a democracy.
That's true, they are. They aren't Stalin's paradise.
if a horribly fucked up one. so. if you add jews to the voting base, you slowly dissolve the opposition. if you disolve the voice of the opposition, you stand a chance at driving the muslims out of jerusalem. if you drive the muslims out of jerusalem, you can rebuild the temple.
Uh Brenna, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Muslims aren't going anywhere. And here is why.
ProtestWarrior.com - signs
after you finish killing all the muslims trying to get back in (and those plotting to get back in, i.e. all of them. mass global islamic genocide). so. you've rebuilt the temple, destroyed the world's muslim population (and most of the countries in between cancer and capricorn), and you sit around and wait for jesus to get pissed enough with all the dumb fucks to come back and put them in their place.
You are aware that the majority of Jews do not believe that the Messiah is Jesus, right? That's kind of why their ancestors handed Him over to be crucified in the first place. Furthermore, its impossible for mean, ole Israel to kill all the Muslims without killing themselves, being that they are nestled in between thousands, upon thousands of Muslim occupied land.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : No reason given.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-17-2006 3:09 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-18-2006 8:26 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 70 by ramoss, posted 07-18-2006 2:02 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 128 (332798)
07-18-2006 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Buzsaw
07-17-2006 10:54 PM


Re: One of the greatest dangers facing mankind.
None of Israel's wars, including this one involved fundamentalist Christians, nor did fundamentalist Christians effect the creation of the nation of Israel in the first place.
Wow, a member who is acquainted with fact and not conjecture. If only more people would realize this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Buzsaw, posted 07-17-2006 10:54 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 128 (332826)
07-18-2006 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by macaroniandcheese
07-18-2006 8:15 AM


Re: One of the greatest dangers facing mankind.
the poles ended the cold war, not ronny.
The Polish ended the Cold War, huh? Now, in all fairness, lets place the blame where it is deserving. Communists destroyed Communism because..... it doesn't work. It never has. Its been an utter failure since its conception. But if you think that Reagan had absolutely no part in stiffling the Cold War from going "hot," then you really do have a skewed view on reality.
Cold War - Wikipedia
and he nearly single-handedly DESTROYED our economy.
I don't know how old you were in the 80's, so perhaps you can't remember the prosperity of those times, but when Reagan took office, he had to clean up the small disaster that was the Carter Administration. And he did just that. He boosted the US morale far beyond its merits and he brought in a change for the better.
Reaganomics - Wikipedia

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-18-2006 8:15 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by nator, posted 07-18-2006 9:58 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 128 (332838)
07-18-2006 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by macaroniandcheese
07-18-2006 8:26 AM


Re: Misconceptions
i don't think you can force the hand of god. but millions of tbn watchers do.
At what point are you going to substantiate your claims? First of all, TBN is monstrously misguided. If anyone understand that TBN is composed of a bunch of jackals, its me. They embarass me. But at the same time, no one is out on some campaign to bring about the End Times. Its going to happen when its going to hapen, and there is nothing that we can do intentionally to bring it about.
um. hi. i've seen the ads to send "our brothers to their homeland" a million times on tbn. and they are bringing in all the jews from ethiopia. and russia and germany and poland and blah blah blah.
Uh, yeah, the offer for Jews to live abroad has always been on the table. You said that they're trying to recruit people to bring about the End Times! You know, the anti-Semitism is getting a little tired. But I'm sure this is the point in time where you say, "I'm not an anti-Semite, I'm just against Zionism." Well, I'm not calling you an anti-semite, but perhaps you've jumped on the "Israel sucks" bandwagon and have inadvertently fallen under its swoon. The reality is that being anti-zionist is the same thing as anti-semitism. Its just a new face on an old and tired ideology concerning Jewish conspiracies.
do i have to describe how many people in boca want to move to their "homeland"? seriously. it's madness.
Its madness that Jews want to live in Israel? If you're from Boca Raton, I'd think that would be welcomed, being that South Florida has more Jews per capita than anywhere else on the planet.
these people are so connected to a land they've never been to and people they don't know and aren't related to all because someone's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom's mom might have been from there. even if no one else in the family was. what a nightmare. i think i have a black relative somewhere... do i need to make a pilgrimage to africa?
Maybe you don't have any sense of fealty, and that's okay. I think pride on any level is sin. To me, there is a difference between standing with your country and a blind allegiance to that country. Its a subtlty that is difficult to articulate. But I don't think you should demonize Jews for wanting to go to Israel, especially in lieu of what happens to them on a daily basis. And before you ask, me taking a pro-Israel stance does not entail me being anti-Palestinian. I already know that there are thousands of Palestinians who have inadvertently been brought into this disaster. Its no fault of their own. But I do place the blame almost entirely on Hezbollah and Hamas for feeding these innocent people's minds with garbage. And for how much restraint Israel has demonstrated, its time to drain the swamp of Islamo-fascism.
doesn't matter that they don't believe in the messiah, you fundies do.
What?!?!? Okay, now I know that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. The Jews DO believe in the Messiah and have been awaiting their Moshiac since the time of King David.... And even before that, in Moses' time, he spoke about the One that would come out of Israel. They just didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. But they will.
"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication. Then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son." -Zechariah 12:10
the jews are bringing in more jews and fighting off muslims because the torah tells them that the land belongs to them. christians are bringing in jews and fighting off the muslims because they think that the bible tells them that if they do, jesus will come back.
First of all, you could just as easily turn your argument around on yourself by making the unmistakable notion that Muslims are bringing in more Muslims to kil Jews. So, even supposing what you said was true, what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander? Secondly, show me where in the Bible that it says Christians will bring Jews to Israel so that Jesus will come back? Jesus is coming whether we want Him to or not. And nothing we can do can speed up what has already happened. If God is real then He lives outside of the time domain and knows all before it happens in real time. So how we can we change what was already written in the annals of time?
"And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, (Jesse is David's father, the Root is the Moshiac) who will stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles will seek Him, and His resting place shall be glorious. It shall come to pass in that Day that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left." -Isaiah 11:10-11
Both verses I cited were written 700 years before Jesus was alive. Both are unmistakably Messianic, thus invalidating that Jews don't believe in a Messiah, and also invalidates that it was inserted by Christians. Its all there if you take the time to read it.
and that's quite bullshit. israel has the only modern army in the area. you remember that six or seven day war? they defeated the whole rest of the arab countries in that time. yeah, i think they can defend themselves. and they have those crazy scary broads in their army. *shudders*
I know they can defend themselves. And soon they will defend themselves from an atack from Russia, and under them, a host of unified nations. I know what they are capable of. I know how the story ends.
quote:
First of all, Jesus IS the Temple.
cute. i thought we were the temple? one day it's one thing, one day it's another.
I don't know who you are, but I'm apart of the church. And "The Church" is supposed to be a body of believers, not some organized entity engaged in racketeering. The "Temple" is Jesus. However, the Jews will try to rebuild the physical Temple. And yes, i do think that it will ignite a firestorm because of what currently resides on the Temple foundation.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-18-2006 8:26 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 10:48 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 68 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-18-2006 1:23 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 128 (332867)
07-18-2006 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
07-18-2006 9:14 AM


Re: One of the greatest dangers facing mankind.
Because I happen to be a Conservative Christain republican and so by definition that is my position.
Let me get this straight: You are a Conservative Christian Republican who thinks Reagan is the worst President in US history, followed closely behind by Dubya, who constantly attacks his fellow Christians, who repeatedly advocates evolution, who otherwise takes a liberal stance on everything else... Does that sound about right?
Explain to me how you are a Conservative Christian Republican:
1. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of god?
2. Who did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential runnings?
3. Do you believe that morality is absolute?
Well, if any of the things you attributed to Reagan were even close to being true you might have an argument, but soap operas had a bigger effect on ending the Cold War that Ronnie.
So you seriously believe that Ronald Reagan had absolutely nothing to do with the ending of the Cold War? He was just an innocent bystander who just so happened to be President during the collapse of the Soviet Union? All his meetings with Gorbachev were in vain? They accomplished nothing?
As to the stuff in Sada's book, what's new? He makes unsupported allegations and claims that even the village idiot could have made.
I'm assuming that the "village idiot" is your fellow Conservative Christian Republican, George W. Bush. Is that accurate?
Georges Sada is an incredibly reliable source. He wasn't some enlisted man or low level Officer. He was a General for the Republic of Iraq.
For example, consider the bit about the alleged dispersal of the supposed WMDs. Now that is exactly what I and many other folk were saying would happen long before the war. If WMDs existed (and so far there has been no indication the do or did) then invading Iraq, even the buildup for an invasion would guarantee the proliferation and distribution of those weapons.
Let me quote one of your political foes:
"People can quarrel with whether we should have more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq, or whatever, but it is incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted-for stocks of biological and chemical weapons." -William Jefferson Clinton
"For years now people have been asking what happened to the WMD's... Everybody understood the reality at the start of the war; I'm convinced it was only politics that made some people change their minds after the fact. But the world has been thinking about WMD's since at least 1990. This was one of the reasons that America decided to invade Iraq in the first place... when Saddam finally grasped the fact that i was just a mater of time until Iraq would be invaded by American and coalition forces, he knew he would have to take special measures to destroy, hide, or at least disguise his stashes of biological and chemical weapons... much to the good fortune, a natural disaster in neighboring Syria provided the perfect cover story for moving a large number of those things out the country... On June 4, 2002, a three-mile-long irrigation dam, which had been drawing water from the Orontes River in the northeastern district of Zeyzoun, Syria, collapsed, inundating three small villages and destroying scores of homes... when President Bashar al-Assad asked for help from Jordan and Iraq, Saddam knew what he would do. For him, the disaster in Syria was a gift, and there, posing as shipments of supplies and equipment sent from Iraq to aid in the relief effort, were Iraq's WMD's... Who would suspect commercial airliners of carrying deadly toxins and contraband technology out of the country?.. Subsequently, I spoke at length to a former civilian airline captain who detailed information about those flights... So this is my plea, and I say it with all my heart: Mr. President Bashar al-Assad, please turn over these weapons. Let the united Nations take them away, and the whole world will thank you."-Gen. Georges Sada (Ret)
The whole world except liberals.
A great deal of Americans under the media's swoon. And you've bought into the lie.
http://www.mediaresearch.org/mp3/welcome.asp
We already know that he's had them before. Does everyone suffer from amnesia? We know that he's used them before. Let me refresh your memory:
“We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.” ” From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry on October 9, 1998
This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.” - From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos
“Saddam’s goal . is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed.” ” Madeline Albright, 1998
“What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad’s regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs.” - Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002
“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.” - Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002
Most of the time, the Left has no forsight or hindsight.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 07-18-2006 9:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 07-18-2006 12:00 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 128 (332884)
07-18-2006 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by arachnophilia
07-18-2006 10:48 AM


Re: Misconceptions
well, not neccessarily. first of all, semites are all the sons of shem, and that include arabs.
Exactly, but try explaining that to a peoples who just discredit the Bible. You point to Genesis 10 and they have no idea what its talking about. But you and I both know that its customary that Semites in modern terms it refers to Jews. But yes, Arabs come from the line of Shem as well.
and being hebrew-friendly doesn't require supporting every crazed zionist rant -- especially the ones that go off on the neighbours of zion.
Yes, very true. And I'm fully aware that Israel has its fair share of nutbags too. And I don't support them in any way. Half of the time I don't agree with any of Israels political idealogies. They are a nation just as polarized on the issues as America. But really, don't you think this coddling of only Palestine is incredibly unfair? I mean, the media has succesfully painted this picture that Israelis tromp through the streets like a bunch of Stormtroopers bent on destruction. It looks an awful lot like to me that they are are, you know, trying to exist. And certain special interest groups feel that they are unfit to exist. That's bs.
i'm all in support of a solid and peaceful state of israel. but that doesn't mean that i can't think israel should stay out palestine or lebanon.
At what point should Israel fight back? They aren't randomly attacking civilians. Is there going to be collateral damage? Yes. There was collateral damage in Iraq too, even despite precision weapons. I couldn't count on my fingers or toes how many times Israel has been attacked and has done nothing except sit on their hands. And the only reason they do so is because the US and UK implore them too. Because we all know what's going to happen. Now its happening.
i have a very deep respect for judaism in general, but that doesn't mean i have to support every extremist religious idea than any jewish person comes up with. are you going to call me an anti-semite too, for not supporting the modern zionist movement? i was quite amused when faith accused me of antisemitism -- lots of cognitive dissonance on that one. here i am signing all my posts in hebrew, and consistently arguing a jewish point of view on scripture, and i'm a jew-hater?
I don't know you well enough to call you an anti-semite. You don't give me that impression. You seem like a reasonable man/woman, unlike some of the other counterparts who are more of the malicious, ad hom'ish type who seem incapable of being reasoned with. And no, I don't expect you to swallow some radical Zionist notion. But we forget so quickly that these arguments are just a spin-off of Nazi propaganda. Its the same thing, different era. We're just waiting for the next Kristalnacht.
you can be anti-zionist without being anti-zion, or anti-israel, or anti-jew, or anti-semitic. i just happen to see the same kind of hate mongering in the zionist camps as i do in the fundamentalist islamic camps in palestine.
Well, I guess I would generally agree if only everyone was able to establish what "Zionism" actually means. Here is Dictionary.com's version. I happen to believe this is what Zionism really means and agree with it.
"A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel"
somehow, that statistic does not suprise me.
Actually, I digress. I was born and raised in Miami which has a very large Jewish population. I think it used to be the highest population of Jews in the world. But I think that figure has changed. Israel is now the highest, 2nd to New York, and 3rd is South Florida. But then again, South Florida is a very large population, so I wouldn't know how to quantify that.
but yes, right now it is madness that anyone wants to move to anywhere in the middle east. but the particular point that i think brenna was highlighting is that most jews here are not israeli -- it's not their homeland; it's their holyland. they feel the connection to land not because they come from there, but because it is sacred to their faith.
The Jews are the only people to ever retain their entire, or nearly their entire, heritage, culture, religion, speech, etc afterbeing dispersed. And they haven't suffered one dispersion, they've suffered three major ones! Jews and their faith are practically homologous. For instance, a good friend I grew up with is a liberal Jew. There are many of them. He's in that limbo between God or no God, but for the most part he is secular. I asked him if he observes Jewish traditions. He conceded that he does. To which I replied, "But surely you are aware that Jewish tradition and the Torah go hand in hand. What meaning does Passover have apart from its religious symbolism?" He understood what I meant.
The point I'm trying to make is, Jews are a very unique peoples. They just are, right or wrong. There is no one earth like, right or wrong. And to be a Jew in their repatriated homeland must be very exciting for them. Instead of scoffing and mocking them, why aren't people celebrating that?
The reason is the Palestinians? What of the Palestinians? They've always been there! Actually, no, they haven't. After the Diaspora, Israel was scortched. It wasn't fertile land that it once or that is coming back today. And several missionary trips throughout many different ages revealed that it was little more than a Bedouin squat. Yes, the Crusaders captured the land. And yes, Moslems recaptureed it. But it never became the flourishing country that it was during the times the Jews inhabited it. Eventually, Israel was enveloped by the Ottoman Empire and when they collapsed, it was handed over to England. During that time, the Holocost ended, and thousands of surving Jews were displaced with nowhere to go. The timing couldn't have been more perfect, almost as if it were designed as such. (hint, hint, wink, wink). So the Balfort Declaration was signed. Immediately the Jews were met by resistance, even though the land was giving to them by the League of Nation (united nations). And they met resistence for one reason only.... the Dome of the Rock; the 3rd most holy site in Islam. Ever since then its been escalating into the disaster that it is today.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 10:48 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2006 8:54 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 128 (332891)
07-18-2006 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
07-18-2006 12:00 PM


Re: One of the greatest dangers facing mankind.
GO NJ!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 07-18-2006 12:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 128 (332893)
07-18-2006 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
07-18-2006 12:09 PM


Re: OT but maybe I can pull it back.
I am a conservative Christian Republican because I am a Christain, registered Republican and espouse a conservative agenda.
I believe that Jesus is the Son of GOD.
If you believe Jesus was the son of God then why don't you believe what He, Himself spoke to His disciples in Matthew concerning the End Times and how to recognize it? Why are End Timer's nuts for drawing logical conclusion coming straight from Scripture and current events?
Who I voted for is absolutely none of your business. In the US one gets to vote in secret and one votes ones conscience and beliefs.
But what you have disclosed is your vehement aversion towards Reagan and Bush Jr. So, right there I can cancel them off your ballot. That leaves Bush Sr and Slick Willy. Why so secretive?
And morality is not absolute.
If morality is not absolute then nothing is wrong and everything is permissable, including Israel in Lebanon and the US in Iraq.
Check mate.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 07-18-2006 12:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Discreet Label, posted 07-18-2006 1:26 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 71 by jar, posted 07-18-2006 3:09 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 73 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 07-18-2006 4:09 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 128 (333021)
07-18-2006 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by macaroniandcheese
07-18-2006 1:23 PM


Re: Misconceptions
i dislike the very idea that someone's geneology, however minute, should guarantee them something that the rest of us have to work for or can never have. i thought we left behind inherited rights a long time ago?
Well, there is a little ambiguity as to what a Jew is. Technically, if only your mother was Jewish then her children would not be considered Jewish, at least not in Biblical times. Even today a Jew is considered either a Cohen or a Levy based on his/her father. Spritually, anyone can be a Jew if they convert to Judaism. But these are trite meanings for a who or what a person is.
and if anti-zionism is anti-semitism, what about all my anti-zionist jewish friends?
There are Americans who are anti-American but it doesn't invalidate their citizenship. The same could be said of your friends. But as I was saying to someone else, I'd guess we'd have to define what Zionism really is since the literal definition has been skewed by personal opinion.
for that i'd have to dislike jews. i don't i dislike the idiotic mentality that most american jews have of picking out one specific if faint ancestry to worship.
Do you not see the irony? If an Arabic man claimed he was an Arab, we'd have no problem with allowing to him to claim that. If an Asian woman claimed to be Asian, we'd have no problem with that. But claiming to be Jewish has this stigma attached to it, either for the Jew or the one to whom he/she is speaking to. If you're a Jew then you're a Jew. Who cares?
half of my family is scottish. it is reasonable to think of myself as a scot.
It would be reasonable to that, however, the gaps of dividing people by race are dwindling because everyone is intermingling. Its not that they couldn't do so biologically in the past, its just that physical barriers such as mountain ranges and oceans prohibited people from the type of intermingling we see today. Because of the separation, distinct features developed on people from various people groups. Now as technology advances, people can go all over the world in relative ease. And people are meeting other people from different races and they are now marrying and procreating. So now, its almost meaningless to define somebody as a "Scotsman" or a "Kenyan," other than, perhapsm where they claim citizenship. Does that make any sense, because I'm not sure I was able to get across the point i hoped for in my own mind.
i have a friend who i love dearly who is all of those things. but he thinks of himself as an israeli jew even though he's never been there nor has his family. and he has pale skin and dark red hair and nordo-russian features. it's stupid.
Yeah, that it is kinda dumb.
what happens to them on a daily basis? you mean in israel or here? cause let me tell you all the horible things that happen to jews on a daily basis in soflo.
Yeah, I know what you mean about the SoFlo crowd... Especially in the West Palm Beach area. Many of them are just secularized. Their Jewishness is almost like a tradition-thing than it is a spiritual thing. But no, I was referring to Israelis.
the jews do not believe in anything remotely resembling your messiah. they believe in a man, a real live non-divine man, who will sit on david's throne and unite the kingdom under the law of the lord.
I never claimed otherwise. This is precisely the reason why they didn't and don't believe that Jesus was their Moshiac. Well, some of them do. In fact, Jesus was crucified on the charge of blasphemy because He claimed to be God. You said that the Jews don't believe in any kind of Messiah.
and that's just the part of it. the jews have believed in many messiahs. and such there havebeen. they are temporary, temporal problem solvers. they fix very real anguish. now would be a perfect time for a jewish messiah. but not a christian one. they are not looking for the descent of god to men. they are not looking for the four corners to shake. they are not looking for the end of the earth.
I know. And that's precisely why they don't understand, yet. But like I said, they will, and they will understand and mourn for Him.
the jews are just as interested in having a monopoly on the holy land as the muslims are.
I think the Jews are interested in having their land, just like the French are interested in having their land, and the Tanzanians having theirs, and the Indonesians theirs.
i'm just the one person who dares to call the jews on their desires.
Uh, no, you're one of many.
it's no different than the christians. it's no different than the muslims. but the christians know their claim is weaker and they think if they help the jews they can sneak in every now and then.
Weaker? Why is their claim weaker? What does that even mean?
are you really so dense that you missed that idea? i wasn't saying that it was written in scripture that blah blah blah bullshit. i was saying that in order to aid the side of the jews politically in israel, the christians are funding "homeland moves". if they dillute the opposing vote with zionist voices, they stand a chance of bringing about the necessary changes like rebuilding the temple which is a JEWISH requirement for the messiah.
I thought we went over this already and you seemed to agree, that you can't force things to happen. You can't enact your own will to push God along. I mean seriously, who goes out there and says, "Come on guys, lets get ourselves raptured!"?
we can't. i didn't say it was logical or consistent, i said it was happening. these people thing that if they manouver, they can make stuff happen faster. they're stupid and mistaken, but that's not my fault.
In order for you to come to this conclusion about those whacky 'ole Christians, you at some point must have seen some talking about this or you must have read about it somewhere. Where did you come up with this theory that Christians are doing this?
i've read it. it's not talking about jesus. second time eh? the first time being out of egypt and the second time being the babylonian exile. they're not talking about the diaspora, they're talking about the exile.
Okay, lets read it again, except this time, I'll provide the whole chapter:
"Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, and He will not judge by what His eyes see, nor make a decision by what His ears hear; But with righteousness He will judge the poor, and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist. And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them.
Also the cow and the bear will graze, their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox. The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea. Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious.
Then it will happen on that day that the Lord will again recover the second time with His hand the remnant of His people, who will remain, from Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart, and those who harass Judah will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, And Judah will not harass Ephraim. They will swoop down on the slopes of the Philistines on the west; Together they will plunder the sons of the east; They will possess Edom and Moab, And the sons of Ammon will be subject to them. And the LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt; And He will wave His hand over the river with His scorching wind; And He will strike it into seven streams And make {men} walk over dry-shod. And there will be a highway from Assyria For the remnant of His people who will be left, just as there was for Israel in the day that they came up out of the land of Egypt.
-Isaiah 11
This verse is Messianic and it describes how He will return for His remnant just like when delivered His people from captivity, i.e. from exile from all over the world. I mean, consider who is the "He," in this Scripture? Whoever the Messiah is, He does things that men cannot do. And to be sure:
"But you Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from old, from everlasting" -Micah 5:2
"For unto us, a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will upon His shoulder. And His Name will called, 'Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.' Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to order it and estabish it with judgement and justice from that forward, even forever." -Isaiah 9:6-7
But many Jews have claimed that Jesus was not the Messiah. So Jesus speaks for Himself to the Chief Priests:
"While the Pharisees were gathered around, Jesus asked them, saying, 'What do you think about the Christ (Messiah)? Who's Son is He?' They said to Him, 'The son of David.' He said to them, 'How then does David in the Spirit call Him Lord, saying, 'The Lord said to my LORD, sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies a footstool.' If David then cals Him Lord, how can He be his son?' And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor did they dare to question Him anymore." -Matthew 22:41-46
that's all i'm saying. and the christians are dumbly trying to help them.
All the supplies for the new Temple are inside a warehouse, somewhere in Israel. The architecture has already been planned, the building materials, and they even thought that they had a blemish-free red heifer. Last I heard, the heifer was declared ritually unclean.
Page not found - Temple Institute
They are going to rebuild their Temple. However, no one can build anything until the Dome of the Rock is removed. So, I really don't know how Christians waiting for this to happens encompasses them helping to rebuild the Temple. The Temple hasn't been attempted to be rebuilt because that time has not yet passed. But when it does, it will be an event that will turn the entire world upside down.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : add italics
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : No reason given.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-18-2006 1:23 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-18-2006 6:20 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 128 (333035)
07-18-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by ramoss
07-18-2006 2:02 PM


Re: Misconceptions
quote:
You are aware that the majority of Jews do not believe that the Messiah is Jesus, right? That's kind of why their ancestors handed Him over to be crucified in the first place. Furthermore, its impossible for mean, ole Israel to kill all the Muslims without killing themselves, being that they are nestled in between thousands, upon thousands of Muslim occupied land.
By definition , Jews do not think that Jesus is the Messiah. If they think Jesus is the Messiah, they are, by definition, Christians, not jews.
I think you need to read what I wrote again.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ramoss, posted 07-18-2006 2:02 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ramoss, posted 07-18-2006 6:48 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 128 (333039)
07-18-2006 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
07-18-2006 3:09 PM


Re: OT but maybe I can pull it back.
Oh really? If so then take it to one of the threads dealing with morality. But I will say NO ONE has ever been able to point to an absolute moral rule.
Okay. Then my point still stands. If there is no absolute morality then right and wrong is just an opinion, which makes my morality just as valid as yours. If that's the case, then you are no position to ever criticize anyone's version of morality. And lastly, you are no position to condemn anyone over their "opinion."
So much for relativism.

“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.”
-1st Peter 3:15

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 07-18-2006 3:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 07-18-2006 8:03 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
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