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Author Topic:   God is good and evil
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 114 (95817)
03-30-2004 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by RingoKid
03-23-2004 3:05 AM


Ringokid,
Neat post. Even though I think you overstated some points. To wit:
Good and evil are governed by motive and intent, which is entirely subjective to the person performing the act...
Drop "entirely" and you are making an important point. But subjectivity is dependent in part on knowledge or ignorance, as in "ignoring pertinent information." Thus, the evil of closing one's eyes to knowledge that will make one subjectively responsible for an act, is not covered.
To say God is good and/or evil is to presume to know the mind of God and apart from a few loose units around there's not many who would make such a claim, suffice to say
GOD IS...
More than you suggest, I'm afraid. That presume to know the mind of God, or even any God that might be.
Beyond these small points, right on, bro.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
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Zachariah
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 114 (98868)
04-09-2004 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by crashfrog
03-22-2004 7:19 PM


and no evil increases choice
May I take the opportunity to say this. I witness a murder (murder is evil) I choose to call the police, they choose to follow up on the investigation, murderer chooses to flee, hide, kill themself, turn themself in to the police, the lawyer chooses to take the case, the jury choose to convict, let him go free . etc..... do you see your mistake yet or should I go on? -Z

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 03-22-2004 7:19 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 33 of 114 (98871)
04-09-2004 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Zachariah
04-09-2004 5:38 AM


I witness a murder (murder is evil) I choose to call the police, they choose to follow up on the investigation, murderer chooses to flee, hide, kill themself, turn themself in to the police, the lawyer chooses to take the case, the jury choose to convict, let him go free . etc..... do you see your mistake yet or should I go on?
There's 6 billion people on Earth. On average they all have the same number of choices in their lives. Call than number "n".
Murder doesn't happen: Total choice = 6,000,000,000 * n.
Murder happens: Total choice = 5,999,999,999 * n.
The second number is less than the first. Ergo, murder reduces choice because it eliminates one lifetime's worth of choice. The fact that you can rattle off ten or twenty choices that the murder presents people with doesn't outwiegh the fact that an entire human lifetime's worth of choice has been eliminated.
What's more evil? Freedom or slavery? Slavery is the reduction of choice, and it's clearly the evilist of the two. Evil reduces choice. Unless you think it's evil to free slaves?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Zachariah, posted 04-09-2004 5:38 AM Zachariah has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by funkman, posted 04-09-2004 11:23 AM crashfrog has replied

  
funkman
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 114 (98899)
04-09-2004 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by crashfrog
04-09-2004 5:51 AM


who's your daddy
Crash,
To your point of God being a bad parent...
Why is it that you liken Him to a parent, when He does not claim to be acting as a parent to everyone? The only people that God considers His "children" are those who are saved. Everyone else, according to the Bible, has Satan as their "father." So why wouldn't you expect bad things to happen when the majority of people have a father like the devil?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 04-09-2004 5:51 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 04-09-2004 8:08 PM funkman has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 35 of 114 (98978)
04-09-2004 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by funkman
04-09-2004 11:23 AM


Why is it that you liken Him to a parent, when He does not claim to be acting as a parent to everyone? The only people that God considers His "children" are those who are saved.
When I was a Christian, I think it's safe to assume that I was one of those children that you refer to. When I talk about my experiences with God you can assume that I'm referring to those experiences I believed I had as a Christian.
For purposes of argument, I'm fine expecting God to act like a parent only to Christians. But if you believe that God gives special treatment in this world to those who cleave to his chruch then you're in for considerable disappointment.
Why doesn't God look out for Christians, at least? Christians are no more or less likely to experience bad things than anybody else.
So why wouldn't you expect bad things to happen when the majority of people have a father like the devil?
I would expect good things to happen to Christians and bad things to happen to everybody else, not bad things happening to everybody.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by funkman, posted 04-09-2004 11:23 AM funkman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by funkman, posted 04-12-2004 1:08 PM crashfrog has replied

  
funkman
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 114 (99422)
04-12-2004 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by crashfrog
04-09-2004 8:08 PM


When I was a Christian, I think it's safe to assume that I was one of those children that you refer to. When I talk about my experiences with God you can assume that I'm referring to those experiences I believed I had as a Christian.
I'm sure you've heard this before, but Christianity isn't something you just try out for a little while to see if it works. You're either saved or you're not, and once you are saved, you can't lose it. So either you are saved, and right now you are severely backslidden, or you were never saved in the first place.
For purposes of argument, I'm fine expecting God to act like a parent only to Christians. But if you believe that God gives special treatment in this world to those who cleave to his chruch then you're in for considerable disappointment.
I never said I believe Christians get special treatment from God in this world. I believe quite to the contrary, actually. II Timothy 3 says that all who live a godly life in this world will suffer persecution.
Why doesn't God look out for Christians, at least?
God has looked out for Christians. He's given us salvation and eternal life. The Christian realizes that this world is not our home, so trials and hardships are just a temporary thing, and very insignificant when compared to the ultimate destination of being with Christ forever in heaven.
I would expect good things to happen to Christians and bad things to happen to everybody else, not bad things happening to everybody.
Again, this is not the case. Christians suffer in this world because this world is under the curse of sin and because the ruler of this world is Satan. Satan wants to make life as hard as possible for Christians, so he attacks them. And I'm sure you're asking right now "Well, why doesn't God stop him? What kind of all-powerful God can't even stop Satan from attacking his children?" I'm sure you're familiar with the story of Job, right? When God said Job was a righteous man and served Him, Satan responded by saying that he only did it because God had blessed and protected him. So God took away the protection, and allowed Satan to persecute Job. In the end, when Job was at the lowest point in life, he still glorified God. And this is one of the reasons why God allows persecution to come to His children. He is glorified when His children praise Him in the midst of troubles.
Let me guess.... you're saying "What kind of sadistic, selfish being allows others to be persecuted so that he can stroke his ego?" Right? Is that what you're thinking? Well, this is not a simple thing to understand because we are human, and for us to do it, it would be pride. But God is God, and He is worthy of all glory and praise, so for Him to do it, it is just.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 04-09-2004 8:08 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by crashfrog, posted 04-17-2004 12:54 PM funkman has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 37 of 114 (100580)
04-17-2004 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Catalyst
03-25-2004 8:07 PM


Re: apple and ball
God is not everything, for example he is not me:
Hugh Ross writes:
Time is that dimension in which cause and effect phenomena take place. . . . If time's beginning is concurrent with the beginning of the universe, as the space-time theorem says, then the cause of the universe must be some entity operating in a time dimension completely independent of and pre-existent to the time dimension of the cosmos. This conclusion is powerfully important to our understanding of who God is and who or what God isn't. It tells us that the creator is transcendent, operating beyond the dimensional limits of the universe. It tells us that God is not the universe itself, nor is God contained within the universe.
Indeed - you can see how I am very much NOT putting God in a box. He can be everywhere without being everything. For example - I am not God.
With your analogy of the apple and the ball, how can you confine God like that,
What? By saying he is independent of space/time and therefore escapes confinement?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Catalyst, posted 03-25-2004 8:07 PM Catalyst has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Catalyst, posted 04-21-2004 12:06 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 38 of 114 (100582)
04-17-2004 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by funkman
04-12-2004 1:08 PM


So either you are saved, and right now you are severely backslidden, or you were never saved in the first place.
I was as certain at the time that I was saved as you are that you're saved, now. So if it's possible to not believe in God and still be saved, that's what I must be.
You know, unless you think I'm going to let you get away with the "True Scotsman" fallacy.
The Christian realizes that this world is not our home, so trials and hardships are just a temporary thing, and very insignificant when compared to the ultimate destination of being with Christ forever in heaven.
So what you're saying is that God doesn't answer prayer, because it wouldn't matter anyway if he did.
Moreover I find it very interesting that it's only this life, which you characterize as insignificant, in which one is forced to make the decision that determines their fate for eternity. That's rather like asking a person to choose their college, career, and spouse on their 1st birthday.
I'm sure you're familiar with the story of Job, right?
Yes. It's clearly a rationalization by the Bible authors to explain why the chosen people are allowed by God to suffer so, and what their response should be.
But God is God, and He is worthy of all glory and praise, so for Him to do it, it is just.
In other words, God is God, so anything he does must be right, including things that if humans did them, would be wrong. What kind of moral authority is above morality? Only immoral ones.
I guess "like it or lump it" isn't sufficent justification for God's bad behavior, especially since the Bible tells me that I have the same sense of right and wrong that he does.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-20-2004 3:04 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 114 (100805)
04-19-2004 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Catalyst
03-01-2004 8:00 PM


Re: Rant
catalyst to Wiz writes:
nothing can exist that did not originate from Him!
Except free will. Free will is a thought that originates from a source besides God.
Why is it so hard for u to c that "evil" and "good" are human concepts?!... Do we not learn from "bad/evil/ occurances and even mistakes?
Yes.
Adam had already been given the knowledge of good and evil before he ate from the tree! When God told him not to eat from the tree, Adam would have know that to go against Gods word would be "Evil"!
Not necessarily. If I tell a kid to stay away from the street, the kid may not know that a car could hit him. He only knows that I have instructed him to avoid the street. God instructed humanity to avoid the entire dualistic realm of evil. Some belief paradigms say that God knows what we will choose before we choose it, since He is outside of time. He is in the future, thus, He knows what we will decide. Others say that God does not know what we will decide since our decision is from an origin apart from Him. (free will) This brings up an interesting concept. In Revelation, the Beast is described on a past/present/future continum as having once been, now is not, and yet is for those who are not in the book of life.
Rev 17:7-8-The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
Perhaps the entire concept of evil as a possessive influence in an individual once was, (before we knew better) now is not (because we have a way out) and yet will come(if you are not on the guest list. In other words, the Host wants to know you!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Catalyst, posted 03-01-2004 8:00 PM Catalyst has replied

Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 40 of 114 (100996)
04-19-2004 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Catalyst
02-26-2004 10:32 PM


God is omniscient with one exception.
God is omnipotent with one exception.
God is omnipresent via the Spirit, which means His presence is everywhere (but not manifested) but His PERSON cannot be in two places at the same time - How could it be ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Catalyst, posted 02-26-2004 10:32 PM Catalyst has replied

Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 41 of 114 (101087)
04-20-2004 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Catalyst
02-26-2004 10:32 PM


The devil is in hell.
catalyst writes:
ok then where is the devil
Where is the devil? Hopefully roasting hotdogs in hell. LOL.
The devil is an angel named Lucifer, Angels according to Catholic tradition are beings of pure intellect and spirit. They are trancendant of physical reality and time. At the moment of Lucifers creation his choice to rebel was made because time means nothing to the spirit. God created the angels but not the choices the angels made. Nor our own choices for that matter. The Devil rebelled and made a choice. The choice was to challenge Gods omnipotence. And apparently it was a bad choice because God cast him and his followers into Hell. So the answer to your question is God is omnipotent/omnipresent and the Devil is in hell with Hitler. This all assumes you are a believer in God and the accounts as written in the bible and interpretations of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Otherwise it is just mythology and you need not worry where the devil is.

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 42 of 114 (101089)
04-20-2004 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Cold Foreign Object
04-19-2004 6:10 PM


I contend that God is manifested in everything. I contend that the Trinity concept as interpreted by the Holy Roman Catholic church was a bunch of metaphysical Aristotilian wiggling in order to keep early christians from questioning whether or not they are pagans for worshiping 3 entities God the Father , God the son, and God the holy ghost. Some early christan churches were teaching that Jesus was not of the same SUBSTANCE as God. And there for not One with the Father.
It was settled in a bitter debate. But how do we know who was right?

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

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One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 43 of 114 (101119)
04-20-2004 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by crashfrog
04-17-2004 12:54 PM


Lots of assuming
"So what you're saying is that God doesn't answer prayer, because it wouldn't matter anyway if he did."
No... where did you get that from the post? To become a soldier you gotta go through bootcamp, right? They make you go through it (remember the Father analogy) and tough it out, but they have a doctor on duty.
"Moreover I find it very interesting that it's only this life, which you characterize as insignificant, in which one is forced to make the decision that determines their fate for eternity. That's rather like asking a person to choose their college, career, and spouse on their 1st birthday."
It's nothing like that at all. We've got quite some time to decide to do what we do when it comes to salvation. True, 80 years compared to an eternity is nothing, but it's quite some time compared to one year. And assuming we knew on that 1st birthday what we knew at 35, we could easily make all those decisions.
"In other words, God is God, so anything he does must be right, including things that if humans did them, would be wrong. What kind of moral authority is above morality? Only immoral ones."
Once again you get a lot more out of someone's post than they put into it, then you go on your own schpeal about why this idea you got from their post is wrong.
I missed what God did that was so wrong?

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by crashfrog, posted 04-17-2004 12:54 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 04-20-2004 3:18 AM One_Charred_Wing has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 114 (101124)
04-20-2004 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by One_Charred_Wing
04-20-2004 3:04 AM


No... where did you get that from the post?
The way you characterized the insignificance of this life as the reason that God doesn't do more to ameliorate the suffering of Christians.
And assuming we knew on that 1st birthday what we knew at 35, we could easily make all those decisions.
Do you think you know now what you'll know in the hereafter? Or wouldn't it be safe to say that, according to your beliefs, the difference between what you know now and what you'll know then is as great, if not greater, than the difference between what you know now and what you knew at age 1? (That was the point of my analogy, which you seem to have missed.)
Once again you get a lot more out of someone's post than they put into it
Right. It's called "the logical consequence of your arguments." Since you refuse to consider them when you come up with your arguments, I have to do it for you. Here's a hint - if the logical consequence of your argument is ridiculous, then your argument is wrong. If you disagree, then it's incumbent upon you to show me how my conclusion is not a logical consequence of your argument - simply stating that it isn't is insufficient.
I missed what God did that was so wrong?
*sigh* The same thing I've been saying all this time - he refuses to take action to prevent suffering when he's got the knowledge and power to do so. By any reasonable or legal standard that represents immoral negligence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-20-2004 3:04 AM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-20-2004 3:26 AM crashfrog has replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6155 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 45 of 114 (101125)
04-20-2004 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by crashfrog
04-20-2004 3:18 AM


Same old story
"The way you characterized the insignificance of this life as the reason that God doesn't do more to ameliorate the suffering of Christians."
I didn't characterize anything; that was Funkman who posted that originally. You don't like what he said, go argue with him.
"Do you think you know now what you'll know in the hereafter? Or wouldn't it be safe to say that, according to your beliefs, the difference between what you know now and what you'll know then is as great, if not greater, than the difference between what you know now and what you knew at age 1? (That was the point of my analogy, which you seem to have missed.)"
Okay, I missed it. However, seeing as there are lots of Christians running around the world right now I'd say the knowledge to believe is present in us with our current level of knowledge.
"Right. It's called "the logical consequence of your arguments." Since you refuse to consider them when you come up with your arguments, I have to do it for you. Here's a hint - if the logical consequence of your argument is ridiculous, then your argument is wrong"
Obviously. And I haven't refused to consider anything, I've answered all of your questions to my knowledge, and if I missed any please point them out so I may answer them.
"sigh* The same thing I've been saying all this time - he refuses to take action to prevent suffering when he's got the knowledge and power to do so. By any reasonable or legal standard that represents immoral negligence. "
We have the power and knowledge in the modern times more than ever before to establish more lasting peace treaties and better medical care. We are being negligent when we have the power, would it not be hypocritical to ask for someone else to do more? According to lots of people God has helped them individually to get through some tough times, I'd say he's doing more than we are.

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 04-20-2004 3:18 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by crashfrog, posted 04-20-2004 3:33 AM One_Charred_Wing has replied

  
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