Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9057 total)
231 online now:
Newest Member: drlove
Post Volume: Total: 889,866 Year: 978/6,534 Month: 978/682 Week: 31/182 Day: 5/26 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Created in the image of God
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 105 (2847)
01-26-2002 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by TrueCreation
01-26-2002 2:16 PM


that does not answer my question at all....why would you assume that an infinite being needs a form? why would that form be male? (you keep refering to God as HE or HIM)...its that not placing a mortal limitation of God? to confine IT to a specific gender?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by TrueCreation, posted 01-26-2002 2:16 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by TrueCreation, posted 01-26-2002 2:31 PM LudvanB has responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 105 (2852)
01-26-2002 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by LudvanB
01-26-2002 2:25 PM


"that does not answer my question at all....why would you assume that an infinite being needs a form? why would that form be male? (you keep refering to God as HE or HIM)...its that not placing a mortal limitation of God? to confine IT to a specific gender?"
--As I have already stated, you are suggesting a theological implication, thus we move out of the realm of science, and into theology, so we move into the bible, this is what the bible portrays. Why is this not what you are looking for?

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by LudvanB, posted 01-26-2002 2:25 PM LudvanB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by LudvanB, posted 01-26-2002 3:52 PM TrueCreation has responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 105 (2885)
01-26-2002 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by TrueCreation
01-26-2002 2:31 PM


But in the realm of science,why do you assume that there even is a God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by TrueCreation, posted 01-26-2002 2:31 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by TrueCreation, posted 01-26-2002 3:56 PM LudvanB has responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 105 (2887)
01-26-2002 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by LudvanB
01-26-2002 3:52 PM


"But in the realm of science,why do you assume that there even is a God?"
--This is outside of the realm of science, and thus comes to you on a personal level, I beleive that it is impossible for the origins of anything can be explained by purely naturalistic causes, ie the origin of the universe, life, the fine tuning of our world/solar system/universe. So what I do, is I look at this ancient book, study study what it says, then you take a look at science, and what do you know? Its extreamly accurate, personally I can conclude that it had to be divinely inspired.

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by LudvanB, posted 01-26-2002 3:52 PM LudvanB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by LudvanB, posted 01-26-2002 4:13 PM TrueCreation has responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 105 (2895)
01-26-2002 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by TrueCreation
01-26-2002 3:56 PM


I'm afraid that my own examination of the Bible forces me to concluded that its unlikely an all-knowing God inspired its writing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by TrueCreation, posted 01-26-2002 3:56 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by TrueCreation, posted 01-26-2002 4:20 PM LudvanB has responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 105 (2896)
01-26-2002 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by LudvanB
01-26-2002 4:13 PM


"I'm afraid that my own examination of the Bible forces me to concluded that its unlikely an all-knowing God inspired its writing."
--No doubt you would think this, otherwize you probley wouldn't be athiestic as it seems. But if you see this as relevant, pick something out, or explain why your own examinatino of the bible forces you to conclude it unlikely.

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by LudvanB, posted 01-26-2002 4:13 PM LudvanB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by LudvanB, posted 01-26-2002 4:37 PM TrueCreation has responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 105 (2904)
01-26-2002 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by TrueCreation
01-26-2002 4:20 PM


First of all,i'm not an Atheist. I fully believe in God. But i think my own beliefs would be characterised as Dheistic...meaning i believe that God works completely through natural processes and Created the universe by setting the stage,determining the rules,lighting the spark of life and then sat back and let nature takes its course. I believe that God is not a biological entity of some kind but rather a very ancient and very powerfull spirit and that all lives are the children of God. I believe that when it is said that God created us in ITS image,i believe that this means our consiousness,spirit or souls,which is the essense of who we are. And i believe that God created the universe so that ITS children could have a learning ground,where they could manifest as corporeal shells so they could interact with their environement and with each other to learn from those interaction in order to first develope and then refine consious thoughts. I believe that the corporeal shell we inhabit at a given time is in direct relation with our level of developement...simpler forms of life for newly born souls and more complex biological constructs for older,more advanced souls. So you see,i view the universe as a learning ground where i will dwell in one corporeal form or another until such time as there is nothing left for me to learn here,at which point i will move on to whatever lays beyond this reality. So i dont really think that i qualify as an athiest

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by TrueCreation, posted 01-26-2002 4:20 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by TrueCreation, posted 01-26-2002 4:44 PM LudvanB has responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 105 (2906)
01-26-2002 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by LudvanB
01-26-2002 4:37 PM


"First of all,i'm not an Atheist. I fully believe in God. But i think my own beliefs would be characterised as Dheistic...meaning i believe that God works completely through natural processes and Created the universe by setting the stage,determining the rules,lighting the spark of life and then sat back and let nature takes its course."
--I believe something a tad simmilar to yours, as technically I believe God is Dheistic God, but not because he chose so, but because of the Fall, by the Fall of man, we lost our direct communion with God. Though I am a YEC, a young earth creationist, it was the Fall that borught out his Dheistic attributes. I'm glad to har you beleive in God (I hope its the God of the bible of course).

"I believe that God is not a biological entity of some kind but rather a very ancient and very powerfull spirit and that all lives are the children of God. I believe that when it is said that God created us in ITS image,i believe that this means our consiousness,spirit or souls,which is the essense of who we are."
--Conceivable

"And i believe that God created the universe so that ITS children could have a learning ground,where they could manifest as corporeal shells so they could interact with their environement and with each other to learn from those interaction in order to first develope and then refine consious thoughts. I believe that the corporeal shell we inhabit at a given time is in direct relation with our level of developement...simpler forms of life for newly born souls and more complex biological constructs for older,more advanced souls. So you see,i view the universe as a learning ground where i will dwell in one corporeal form or another until such time as there is nothing left for me to learn here,at which point i will move on to whatever lays beyond this reality. So i dont really think that i qualify as an athiest"
--As an attribute towared the ToE, I would beg to differ.

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by LudvanB, posted 01-26-2002 4:37 PM LudvanB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by LudvanB, posted 01-26-2002 5:32 PM TrueCreation has responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 105 (2923)
01-26-2002 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by TrueCreation
01-26-2002 4:44 PM


I'm afraid not...The God of the Bible is infinite and always existed. I firmly believe that God is finite,although the sheer scope of its being is so makes IT appear as infinite from our point of view AT THIS TIME. I also believe that God began at some point in a very distant past. As for the fall of man,i dont believe a word of it. Most of the book of genesis is actually ancient sumerian and babylonian myths that have been recycled by the hebrews. In the original story of Adam,he was created by GODS(plural) along with a woman called Lilith. But Lilith spurned him and so the GODS created Eve. And the story of Noah to the Babylonians is actually the story of a legendary hero called Gilgamesh,who wa warned by the Gods that a flood was comming and he should build a boat to save the animals,who could not save themselves. In that story,the flood is not a punishement but a natural disaster of which the Gods warn mankind because they care for them. Notice how dramaticaly that story was changed by the Hebrew

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by TrueCreation, posted 01-26-2002 4:44 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by TrueCreation, posted 01-26-2002 6:19 PM LudvanB has responded
 Message 104 by rockin_rob, posted 01-23-2005 10:01 PM LudvanB has not yet responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 105 (2927)
01-26-2002 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by LudvanB
01-26-2002 5:32 PM


"I'm afraid not...The God of the Bible is infinite and always existed. I firmly believe that God is finite,although the sheer scope of its being is so makes IT appear as infinite from our point of view AT THIS TIME."
--I would be to believe that he is fully infinante any objections with reason?

"I also believe that God began at some point in a very distant past."
--Is this your belief or is it based on anything?

"As for the fall of man,i dont believe a word of it."
--Do you believe the books outside of Genesis to be true?

"Most of the book of genesis is actually ancient sumerian and babylonian myths that have been recycled by the hebrews."
--Actually it could be the other way around.

". In the original story of Adam,he was created by GODS(plural) along with a woman called Lilith. But Lilith spurned him and so the GODS created Eve. And the story of Noah to the Babylonians is actually the story of a legendary hero called Gilgamesh,who wa warned by the Gods that a flood was comming and he should build a boat to save the animals,who could not save themselves. In that story,the flood is not a punishement but a natural disaster of which the Gods warn mankind because they care for them. Notice how dramaticaly that story was changed by the Hebrew."
--I am aware of the story of Gilgamesh, but are you aware of the two-hundred something others? I believe they are all based on the Noacian Flood story, for one it being the most reasonable and depictive, any objections with reason?

------------------

[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 01-26-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by LudvanB, posted 01-26-2002 5:32 PM LudvanB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by LudvanB, posted 01-27-2002 4:34 AM TrueCreation has responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 105 (2951)
01-27-2002 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by TrueCreation
01-26-2002 6:19 PM


My belief in God stems from observation of the world around us...every life has a begining at some point and an end at some point. I see no reason to believe that the LIVING God would be any different...only in the case of God,the sheer scale of IT's being,as i said,is probably so vast that to us,IT appears as infinite and all encompassing. Take for exemple the relation between a blue whale and a microbe. Viewed from the microbe's point of view and considering its very short life span,the whale on which it dwells would appear to be infinite and its unlikely that it would ever gain a perspective that could allow it to actually see the whale as a whole and understand that its actually merely a much larger,much more complex life form than the microbe is. Multiply this by about 15-20 billions,and you can approximate the relationship between man and God. To me,that does not reduce the awe inspiring majesty of God,btw. I believe that God did create the universe,albeit through a long,natural process. But i dont believe that God created LIFE per say...i believe that God GAVE birth to life,much like a parent gives birth to children and we,as humans,are but one of many manifestations of this life. And i believe that this is what God is telling us through ITS word...but to me the word of God is not the Bible...the word of God is the whole of creation itself and the Bible,like the Koran,the Torah,the Talmut,the eastern phisolophies,the native american belief,the hindou religion,the Norse mythologies and so on and so forth all the way up to and including today's scientific knowledge are all mankind's attempts to decipher this Word of God.

As for the book of Genesis,yes it is concievable that it was the original source of all creation legends across the world but judging from the facts at hand,thats rather unlikely. There is clear historical and archeological evidence to demonstrate that the Babylonian and Sumerian empires predate the Hebrew civilision by at least 1000 years and so obviously,their creation story came BEFORE the book of Genesis as writen by the hebrew. Fruthermore,it is a well known fact that the hebrew were at one point slaves of the Babylonians and it stands to reason that this is where they aquired those ancients sumerian/babylonian myths and legends about Adam,Lilith(which they dropped completely in their version),Eve and Gilgamesh(which became Noah in their legends). Also,there is a historical precedent in Babylonian lore for the hebrew belief about the longevity of the Patriarch. The Babylonians believed that many of their greatest kings in their past had reigned for thousands and thousands of years at the time....i believe that in their folklore,one babylonian king had reigned for nearly 35 thousands years. So the hebrew also included this in their story,both to illustrate the relative wisdom of the Patriarch in their story and to account for the fact that 2 people living 50-60 years at most,which was the longevity prevalent in hebrew time,could not have given birth to the whole human race...on the other hand,if they and their children all lived to be 900 years old,well,that gives them plenty of time to have hundreds of children each and that settles the problem. And since there was no one who lived to be 900 in the days when the bible was originaly writen,well,they had to begin decreasing the longevity of people in the chronological order of their story until they reached longevity that was observable at the time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by TrueCreation, posted 01-26-2002 6:19 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by TrueCreation, posted 01-27-2002 1:47 PM LudvanB has responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 105 (2954)
01-27-2002 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by LudvanB
01-27-2002 4:34 AM


"My belief in God stems from observation of the world around us...every life has a begining at some point and an end at some point. I see no reason to believe that the LIVING God would be any different...only in the case of God,the sheer scale of IT's being,as i said,is probably so vast that to us,IT appears as infinite and all encompassing. Take for exemple the relation between a blue whale and a microbe. Viewed from the microbe's point of view and considering its very short life span,the whale on which it dwells would appear to be infinite and its unlikely that it would ever gain a perspective that could allow it to actually see the whale as a whole and understand that its actually merely a much larger,much more complex life form than the microbe is. Multiply this by about 15-20 billions,and you can approximate the relationship between man and God. To me,that does not reduce the awe inspiring majesty of God,btw."
--When Considering the standpoint of infinity, I think it can be in no way matchable to any numerable scale of awe that anyone would so choose to proceed in, ie your view of God as not 'infininte' but then you say he is only 'infinite' in a humans eyes because 'he would be us multiplied by 15-20 billion', the problem with us is using the word infinite as if it is a numerable scale. Take for instance, can god create a rock so big that he can't lift it. The answer to that would be, consider infinacy, if God is infinite then they just contredicted themselves in asking that question. Say God created a rock of infinite size + 2, God being only infinite, would it not be logical that the rock is bigger than he is? This isn't true because using the word infinite, you cannot get any farther than that, adding no matter what the numerable number is to 'infinite' is no bigger than 'infinite' itself.

"I believe that God did create the universe,albeit through a long,natural process. But i dont believe that God created LIFE per say..."
--Thats too bad, personally, I think it eroneous to say life could come out of non-life, even more eroneous than something from nothing actually. As even with human intelligent input, we cannot get even a cry towards any form of life, let alone a cell with the capability to reproduce itself.

"i believe that God GAVE birth to life,much like a parent gives birth to children and we,as humans,are but one of many manifestations of this life. And i believe that this is what God is telling us through ITS word...but to me the word of God is not the Bible..."
--So you don't believe the bible?

"the word of God is the whole of creation itself and the Bible,like the Koran,the Torah,the Talmut,the eastern phisolophies,the native american belief,the hindou religion,the Norse mythologies and so on and so forth all the way up to and including today's scientific knowledge are all mankind's attempts to decipher this Word of God."
--I don't think we have to look in between the lines, or look past the bible to find accuracy, as it has allready been written, being the truth.

"As for the book of Genesis,yes it is concievable that it was the original source of all creation legends across the world but judging from the facts at hand,thats rather unlikely."
--I've asked this numerous times, what are these facts?

"There is clear historical and archeological evidence to demonstrate that the Babylonian and Sumerian empires predate the Hebrew civilision by at least 1000 years and so obviously,their creation story came BEFORE the book of Genesis as writen by the hebrew."
--What makes it so clear? What is the evidence?

"Fruthermore,it is a well known fact that the hebrew were at one point slaves of the Babylonians and it stands to reason that this is where they aquired those ancients sumerian/babylonian myths and legends about Adam,Lilith(which they dropped completely in their version),Eve and Gilgamesh(which became Noah in their legends)."
--What is this fact based on?

"i believe that in their folklore,one babylonian king had reigned for nearly 35 thousands years. So the hebrew also included this in their story,both to illustrate the relative wisdom of the Patriarch in their story and to account for the fact that 2 people living 50-60 years at most,which was the longevity prevalent in hebrew time,could not have given birth to the whole human race...
--35 thousand year reign? Where is that written, also what does not allow adam and eve to produce the whole human race?

"on the other hand,if they and their children all lived to be 900 years old,well,that gives them plenty of time to have hundreds of children each and that settles the problem. And since there was no one who lived to be 900 in the days when the bible was originaly writen,well,they had to begin decreasing the longevity of people in the chronological order of their story until they reached longevity that was observable at the time."
--So you think that people living to such an age is just a story?

-------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by LudvanB, posted 01-27-2002 4:34 AM LudvanB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by LudvanB, posted 01-27-2002 5:52 PM TrueCreation has responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 105 (2968)
01-27-2002 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by TrueCreation
01-27-2002 1:47 PM


Study your history...the Babylonian empire began around 2000 BC and it was inherited from the Sumerian empire,who's exact origin are unclear since much records have been lost over time but what is clear is that they had at least 12 century of history before the Babylonians took them over,which would place their origin AT LEAST 3200 BC...700 BEFORE the biblical flood...and none of their historical records,which were inherited by the Babylonians make mention of a world wide flood with the possible exception of the legend of Gilgamesh...and even in that story,the flood is local. And the Hebreu themselves admit to having been slaves of the Babylonians in a distant past...the Babylonians reigned over all of what is know as the Middle East today for nearly 1600 years. Their culture thus predates the Hebrew civilisation,which back then consisted of scatered tribes here and there. So it stands to reason that their myth are older in origin because the Babylonians themselves inherited them from a previous culture...the Sumerian. As for the 35000 years old king,thats just a Babylonian legend...no serious historians believe it to be factual. But it does illustrate some interesting parallels between Hebrew legends and the Babylonian legends who reigned over them for 15 centuries...As i mentionned earlier in another thread,the Adam legend was either Babylonian or Sumerian in origin and is somewhat different for the hebrew version of that tale,as in the earlier babylonian version,Adam was created along side Lilith from the earth itself and when Lilith spurned Adam,the Gods cursed her and then took a rib from Adam to fashion an obediant wife named eve. The hebrew,who believed in ONE God as opposed to many Gods like the Babylonians took that story and modified it somewhat,saying that ONE God created Adam and then Eve and dropped Lilith all together from the story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by TrueCreation, posted 01-27-2002 1:47 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by TrueCreation, posted 01-27-2002 6:25 PM LudvanB has responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 105 (2969)
01-27-2002 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by LudvanB
01-27-2002 5:52 PM


"Study your history..."
--I would advice withdraw to such a comment, I don't make such to you and your old earth friends, so I don't think you should to me. As my profile says, 'Unbiased scientific inquiery is the basis of true knowledge and understanding. In deposition of my vernality, I should not be underestimated.'

"the Babylonian empire began around 2000 BC and it was inherited from the Sumerian empire,who's exact origin are unclear since much records have been lost over time."
--This is not the information I inquired of and isn't what I am looking for. I asked for how we came to these conclusions that these are the dates when so and so started.

"but what is clear is that they had at least 12 century of history before the Babylonians took them over,which would place their origin AT LEAST 3200 BC...700 BEFORE the biblical flood..."
--What makes it so clear? That is what I am asking.

"and none of their historical records,which were inherited by the Babylonians make mention of a world wide flood with the possible exception of the legend of Gilgamesh..."
--Actually this is an incorrect statement, talk.origins even knows that the Babylonians have a flood story (along with hundreds of other world cultures).

quote:

Three times (every 1200 years), the gods were distressed by the disturbance from human overpopulation. The gods dealt with the problem first by plague, then by famine. Both times, the god Enki advised men to bribe the god causing the problem. The third time, Enlil advised the gods to destroy all humans with a flood, but Enki had Atrahasis build an ark and so escape. Also on the boat were cattle, wild animals and birds, and Atrahasis' family. When the storm came, Atrahasis sealed the door with bitumen and cut the boat's rope. The storm god Adad raged, turning the day black. After the seven-day flood, the gods regretted their action. Atrahasis made an offering to them, at which the gods gathered like flies. and Enki established barren women and stillbirth to avoid the problem in the future. [Dalley, pp. 23-35]

--Sounds even simmilar to the Noacian Flood accept for a couple of aspects ofcourse.

"And the Hebreu themselves admit to having been slaves of the Babylonians in a distant past..."
--Could be true, but this is based on?

"the Babylonians reigned over all of what is know as the Middle East today for nearly 1600 years. Their culture thus predates the Hebrew civilisation,which back then consisted of scatered tribes here and there."
--How do we know this?

"So it stands to reason that their myth are older in origin because the Babylonians themselves inherited them from a previous culture...the Sumerian."
--And how do we know this? What are these dates based on?

"As for the 35000 years old king,thats just a Babylonian legend...no serious historians believe it to be factual. But it does illustrate some interesting parallels between Hebrew legends and the Babylonian legends who reigned over them for 15 centuries..."
--Yes it does.

"As i mentionned earlier in another thread,the Adam legend was either Babylonian or Sumerian in origin and is somewhat different for the hebrew version of that tale,as in the earlier babylonian version,Adam was created along side Lilith from the earth itself and when Lilith spurned Adam,the Gods cursed her and then took a rib from Adam to fashion an obediant wife named eve. The hebrew,who believed in ONE God as opposed to many Gods like the Babylonians took that story and modified it somewhat,saying that ONE God created Adam and then Eve and dropped Lilith all together from the story."
--Interesting, though you could still have it backwords. Do you know what I am asking for or does it not exist?

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by LudvanB, posted 01-27-2002 5:52 PM LudvanB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by LudvanB, posted 01-27-2002 9:23 PM TrueCreation has responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 105 (2982)
01-27-2002 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by TrueCreation
01-27-2002 6:25 PM


I do not believe that my comment was in any way insulting or demeaning to you. How do we know if those dates are accurate? the fact of the matter is that we dont. But historians work by comparing historical records from different times periods in a given culture and draw a conculsion from there. It is concievable that the dates given in those ancient records are flawed or attempts at deception for some reason we can only guess at but then,couldn't the same thing be said about ALL historical and pseudo-historical accounts...including the Bible? However it is,i believe,reasonable to assume that people who bothered to keep historical accounts back then were as thoughrough as we are today. So what we have are conflicting informations from different source. I have a natural tendency to believe more information that come from what i would call non-coercive sources myself(i.e. with no "either you believe this and that or you burn in hell forever,you heathen" type of threats) so i tend to believe non-dogmatic historical records over dogmatic ones. I also have great difficulty with the flood story because to me,such an act of unbridled malovelance and destruction is diametricaly opposed to the nature of a nurturing Creator.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by TrueCreation, posted 01-27-2002 6:25 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by TrueCreation, posted 01-27-2002 10:04 PM LudvanB has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022