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Author Topic:   Created in the image of God
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 105 (2987)
01-27-2002 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by LudvanB
01-27-2002 9:23 PM


"I do not believe that my comment was in any way insulting or demeaning to you.
--Trust me, its allright, It didn't bring a tear to my eye, though comments as such indicate just a little too much confidence in your rebutal, this is something that as you look throughout my posts, I greatly avoid, that way when a real successful rebutal is made, you don't look too awkword, kind of like the analogy, of flowing with the river and not bumping into rocks or struggling to swim the other way.

"How do we know if those dates are accurate? the fact of the matter is that we dont."
--Interesting...

"But historians work by comparing historical records from different times periods in a given culture and draw a conculsion from there. It is concievable that the dates given in those ancient records are flawed or attempts at deception for some reason we can only guess at"
--I don't think it would be a purposful action of deception of these given dates, though I do speculate that it is based on a flawed dating method. It would be interesting to read on how they actually do 'work by compairing historical records from different time periods in a given culture', also I would speculate that many of these historical records may have been passed down by oral tradition, for example, I believe that odysseus's voyage was a true event, though greatly exadurated because of this oral tradition.

but then,couldn't the same thing be said about ALL historical and pseudo-historical accounts...including the Bible?"
--It would... but the problem with accusing the bible as such, is we have a geneological record, ie, lifespans of Adam all the way up to christ who we know exactly when his death occured, unless ofcourse you would like to count those 3 days untill his ressurection.

"However it is,i believe,reasonable to assume that people who bothered to keep historical accounts back then were as thoughrough as we are today."
--Lets consider it as if much of these historical counts were brought down by oral tradition, now wouldn't the bible be no more correct than these others? The problem is that when the bible was written it was written to give truth and historical accuracy, as to entertainment to people sitting round the camp fire or something of that nature.

"So what we have are conflicting informations from different source. I have a natural tendency to believe more information that come from what i would call non-coercive sources myself(i.e. with no "either you believe this and that or you burn in hell forever,you heathen" type of threats) so i tend to believe non-dogmatic historical records over dogmatic ones."
--I have a tendency to believe the same from fallable sources, ie, that are not the bible. The bible I believe not because it says 'either you believe this and that or you burn in hell forever, (discluding the 'you heathen' part as I think it would be used for someone directly violating scripture in the bible, such as a sorcerer or pegan idolotries and such) but because it doesn't counter you in such an attitude, as it speaks volumes of love of the creator for his creations. Really, he could strike us all dead right now and it would be perfectly lawful for God to do so, as we are sinners and continuously violate his word. As for non-biblical sources, I tend to think the same way, and if it does counter you in such a way, I ignore them, and I look at their science, considering creation science ministries and such.

"I also have great difficulty with the flood story because to me,such an act of unbridled malovelance and destruction is diametricaly opposed to the nature of a nurturing Creator."
--This is a big question, to me I am about neutral as it pertains to this question, why would a loving God go and just kill everybody on the planet. I am neutral because I see it as a very sad event as anyone would, but at the same time you see justice, and judgement, and then you look at it again and you see love and compation. As if he did not do such a thing, we would all be in the same position, Though I think it is worse today than in Noah's day, there are millions that are saved christians on the planet, hey if there werent, Im sure God would do something about it. Also God Gave the people 100 years while building the ark to repent and not one of them did so, they all thought he was crazy! (personally I would think the same thing today, but that is because It would contredict scripture) So why would God wipe out all those even unborn babies? Well really God was doing them a favor in a way, as he was bringing them to heaven, rather than letting them be born in such a wicked world and grow to be shown either God doesn't exist or that he is bad or you should just do whatever you want and it doesn't matter, fullfill your lust.

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by LudvanB, posted 01-27-2002 9:23 PM LudvanB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by LudvanB, posted 01-27-2002 11:00 PM TrueCreation has responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 105 (2993)
01-27-2002 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by TrueCreation
01-27-2002 10:04 PM


The Bible does have a genealogy but there is absolutely no physical evidence to substanciate it either(i.e. no tombs from Adam and company). One could say that they were destroyed during the flood but i'd say thats rather conveniant. Also,the Hebrew,who are the first writers of the Bible did not begin to write it down until 1700 BC so everything before that was oral history and as such,subject to the same possible corruption over time. And as i said,i believe that the biblical legends are inheritance of the babylonian and sumerian myths anyway.

As i explained yesterday,i do not think of God as a God of autority and perfection,making every effort to tolerate our sinfull nature out of love. I do NOT believe that God holds us to a strict standard of perfection you describe. And i certainly do not believe that God would punish us with eternal damnation should we fail to meet that standard. I believe that God's love for us is completely and utterly unconditional,like the love of any good parent for their children. I believe that Jesus Christ was a part of God,sent here on earth to set the record strait and make certain we understood this basic fact. And i firmly believe that every culture received such a mesage from God,in one form or another. I also believe that God dislike the concept of organized religion...Jesus certainly was not a partisan for it. I believe that the relationship between us and God is completely personal and involves no specific rules. I do believe that God gave us some basic rules of conduct to illustrate how we should be good to one another. I believe in the ten commandements and try to abide by them as much as humanly possible because to me,they are completely logical and necessary to sustain any form of long term community but i dont believe for one second that God made ANY rules beyond those (i.e. rules against eating pork,working on the sabbath,homosexuality,ect). And i dont believe that God would ever destroy the world to make a point and on that particular point,my position will remain as such unless God in person tells me otherwise.

[This message has been edited by LudvanB, 01-27-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by TrueCreation, posted 01-27-2002 10:04 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by TrueCreation, posted 01-28-2002 6:18 PM LudvanB has responded

  
apuleius11
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 105 (3002)
01-28-2002 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Lorenzo7
01-16-2002 8:30 AM


H.L. Mencken once said, in Man's Place in Nature:"If we assume that man actually does resemble God, then we are forced into the impossible theory that God is a coward, an idiot and a bounder." It is more probable that man created God in his own image than the other way around. The God of the Old Testament is a vain, jealous, angry and vindictive god, who punishes people if they do not believe in him, disobey his will or worship some other god. In short, he is more like a petty Oriental despot than the creator of this awesome and magnificent universe. Do you actually suppose that a being who could create a universe like the one we inhabit, with its billions of galaxies, trillions of stars and limitless expanse of worlds, nebulae and other astronomical phenomena could resemble, even remotely so insignificant and incompetent an insect as man? You cannot always judge the artist by his art - a great artist may paint monsters and aberrations, but that doesn't mean that he looks like them. Man's belief that he was created in the image and likeness of God only demonstates human vanity, egoism and folly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Lorenzo7, posted 01-16-2002 8:30 AM Lorenzo7 has not yet responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 105 (3024)
01-28-2002 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by LudvanB
01-27-2002 11:00 PM


"The Bible does have a genealogy but there is absolutely no physical evidence to substanciate it either(i.e. no tombs from Adam and company)"
--What would you expect to find? We can't find the Garden of Eden either, but its obvious, what do you think would happen to it if a Global Flood swept the land? And if he was burried in a cave...what cave? Caves were formed by the Flood, unless they created the tomb themselves.

"One could say that they were destroyed during the flood but i'd say thats rather conveniant."
--More than conveniant, its pretty much obvious.

"Also,the Hebrew,who are the first writers of the Bible did not begin to write it down until 1700 BC so everything before that was oral history and as such,subject to the same possible corruption over time."
--The date at which Genesis was first written is unknown, though its endint time is suspected to be around this area, I think I remember that Genesis was written by multiple people, and Moses put it together.

"And as i said,i believe that the biblical legends are inheritance of the babylonian and sumerian myths anyway."
--You can believe that if you would like, but it seems you would have alot more Faith than I do to do so.

"As i explained yesterday,i do not think of God as a God of autority and perfection,making every effort to tolerate our sinfull nature out of love."
--Then you don't believe anything the bible has to say do you?

"I do NOT believe that God holds us to a strict standard of perfection you describe."
--I never said we were perfect, we are a far cry from perfect, and when he made us, we were made as perfect towards his plan, ie that doesn't mean that we were also infinite for example.

"And i certainly do not believe that God would punish us with eternal damnation should we fail to meet that standard."
--Who said God punished you for doing so? God doesn't send you to hell, you send yourself there, besides God didn't make Hell for you, he made it for Satan and his angels. (Actually the Lake of fire was, as Hell is actually temporary)

"I believe that God's love for us is completely and utterly unconditional,like the love of any good parent for their children."
--Amen.

"I believe that Jesus Christ was a part of God,sent here on earth to set the record strait and make certain we understood this basic fact."
--Exactly, he said it himself, "I am the truth the light and the way, no one sees the Father and enteres the kingdom of Heaven accept by me".

"And i firmly believe that every culture received such a mesage from God,in one form or another."
--In one for or another true.

"I also believe that God dislike the concept of organized religion...Jesus certainly was not a partisan for it."
--Also true, thats why it is relationship, not religion.

"I believe that the relationship between us and God is completely personal and involves no specific rules."
--Hm..True, but I would speculate on what you mean by 'involving no specific rules'.

"I do believe that God gave us some basic rules of conduct to illustrate how we should be good to one another. I believe in the ten commandements and try to abide by them as much as humanly possible because to me,they are completely logical and necessary to sustain any form of long term community but i dont believe for one second that God made ANY rules beyond those (i.e. rules against eating pork,working on the sabbath,homosexuality,ect)."
--I see the ten commandments as the fundemental laws, the only way you will get to heaven is to follow these laws in the old testament, and do sacrifices to repent of doing so and so on. But since Jesus died on the cross, he made a kind of medium, such a beautiful picture was painted all throughout the book of Job as he so much described the need for a way to Heaven in such a way, thus Jesus Christ.
--Though I do believe you are so dreadfully wrong on Homosexuality, it is directly condemned in the bible.

"And i dont believe that God would ever destroy the world to make a point and on that particular point,my position will remain as such unless God in person tells me otherwise."
--Such people say things such as this for the reason they don't believe in God, though this is not fundemental for you to inheret the Kingdom of Heaven, it seems to be tugging on you greatly and dragging you down, and he didn't just destroy the world to make a point.

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by LudvanB, posted 01-27-2002 11:00 PM LudvanB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by LudvanB, posted 01-28-2002 6:42 PM TrueCreation has responded
 Message 70 by nator, posted 02-03-2002 4:51 PM TrueCreation has responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 105 (3027)
01-28-2002 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by TrueCreation
01-28-2002 6:18 PM


I know that Homosexuality is expressly condemned in the Bible but i'm convinced that God had nothing to do with that condemnation winding up in there...This is clearly a cultural bias of the ancient Hebrew that has stuck with us like a bad stain and i hope that we will get rid of it eventually (the idea that homosexuality is somehow wrong). Homosexuals are who they are because thats how God wants them,for some reason we can only guess at(diversity,testing man's tolerance of the difference,population control,ect) Interestingly,Jesus makes absolutely no mention about homosexuality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by TrueCreation, posted 01-28-2002 6:18 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by TrueCreation, posted 01-28-2002 11:04 PM LudvanB has responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 105 (3042)
01-28-2002 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by LudvanB
01-28-2002 6:42 PM


"I know that Homosexuality is expressly condemned in the Bible but i'm convinced that God had nothing to do with that condemnation winding up in there...This is clearly a cultural bias of the ancient Hebrew that has stuck with us like a bad stain and i hope that we will get rid of it eventually (the idea that homosexuality is somehow wrong). Homosexuals are who they are because thats how God wants them,for some reason we can only guess at(diversity,testing man's tolerance of the difference,population control,ect) Interestingly,Jesus makes absolutely no mention about homosexuality."

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Leviticus 18:22 (KJV): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind it is abomination."

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Today the penalty of death comes in the form of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases...

Romans 1:24-32:

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

--Obviously Homosexuality is not a very good thing...

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

--More can be found at http://www.bible.com/answers/ahomosex.html
--It is clear allll throughout the bible it speaks of homosexuality not as something Jesus tolerates nore scripture, and is simply abomination.

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by LudvanB, posted 01-28-2002 6:42 PM LudvanB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by LudvanB, posted 01-28-2002 11:15 PM TrueCreation has responded
 Message 53 by mark24, posted 01-29-2002 11:22 AM TrueCreation has responded
 Message 55 by LudvanB, posted 01-30-2002 10:40 PM TrueCreation has responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 105 (3043)
01-28-2002 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by TrueCreation
01-28-2002 11:04 PM


TC,you can quote all the Biblical condemnation of homosexuality till the cows comes home,you are still quoting the OPINIONS of MAN writen by the hand of MAN. You may believe your Bible to be God inspired...I,however,do not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by TrueCreation, posted 01-28-2002 11:04 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by TrueCreation, posted 01-30-2002 10:56 PM LudvanB has not yet responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 4309 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 53 of 105 (3067)
01-29-2002 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by TrueCreation
01-28-2002 11:04 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:

Today the penalty of death comes in the form of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases...


Unfortunately AIDS affects heterosexuals that have only had sex with their husbands/wives as well.

Why punish these people?

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by TrueCreation, posted 01-28-2002 11:04 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by joz, posted 01-29-2002 11:42 AM mark24 has not yet responded
 Message 57 by TrueCreation, posted 01-30-2002 10:57 PM mark24 has not yet responded

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 105 (3075)
01-29-2002 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by mark24
01-29-2002 11:22 AM


Hey we`re back where we were with Red at the start of the lets face it thread....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by mark24, posted 01-29-2002 11:22 AM mark24 has not yet responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 105 (3154)
01-30-2002 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by TrueCreation
01-28-2002 11:04 PM


And BTW TC,Aids is next to non-existant among homosexual women (lesbians) so your contention that AIDS is somehow a punishement for homosexuality is absurd. Aids is a plague that is ravaging Africa even as we speak. Are you gonna pretend that they are being punished for being black? This sort of idiotic "natural catastrophies are actually divine punishements" mentality belongs in the dark ages,mr Torquenada...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by TrueCreation, posted 01-28-2002 11:04 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by TrueCreation, posted 01-30-2002 11:02 PM LudvanB has responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 105 (3159)
01-30-2002 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by LudvanB
01-28-2002 11:15 PM


"TC,you can quote all the Biblical condemnation of homosexuality till the cows comes home,you are still quoting the OPINIONS of MAN writen by the hand of MAN. You may believe your Bible to be God inspired...I,however,do not."
--I don't have a problem with what you believe, but as for your assertion that the bible says otherwize on homosexuality, it sertainly doesn't.

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by LudvanB, posted 01-28-2002 11:15 PM LudvanB has not yet responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 105 (3160)
01-30-2002 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by mark24
01-29-2002 11:22 AM


"Unfortunately AIDS affects heterosexuals that have only had sex with their husbands/wives as well.

Why punish these people?"
--I'm sure you are aware of the origins of the HIV virus.

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by mark24, posted 01-29-2002 11:22 AM mark24 has not yet responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 105 (3164)
01-30-2002 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by LudvanB
01-30-2002 10:40 PM


"And BTW TC,Aids is next to non-existant among homosexual women (lesbians) so your contention that AIDS is somehow a punishement for homosexuality is absurd."
--Technically it wasn't even my material... as I gave you a link to the copy/paste.

"Aids is a plague that is ravaging Africa even as we speak. Are you gonna pretend that they are being punished for being black?"
--You do know the origins of the virus im sure, I know two implications that sort of connect together. Something done by a couple of people, can have a major effect on the world. I would never assert such a racist comment, racism is far from the subject.

"This sort of idiotic "natural catastrophies are actually divine punishements" mentality belongs in the dark ages,mr Torquenada..."
--Mr. Torquenada? Again it wasn't my comment, though you cannot fight with the bible if you are going to make such an implication that it does not condemn such acts. Homosexuality is totally another subject anyways and is right in there next to opinion and doesn't have much at all to do with the creation/evolution debate.

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by LudvanB, posted 01-30-2002 10:40 PM LudvanB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by LudvanB, posted 01-30-2002 11:07 PM TrueCreation has responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 105 (3165)
01-30-2002 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by TrueCreation
01-30-2002 11:02 PM


I am well aware that it makes this condemnation and as i said,its merely reflecting the opinions held by the men who wrote the Bible,much that nonsense about multi-thread clothings. This is what is called a cultural bias and there actually a very secular explanation on possibly why the early hebrew saw fit to put this nonsense in their holy book. If you're interested i'll tell you about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by TrueCreation, posted 01-30-2002 11:02 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by TrueCreation, posted 02-01-2002 11:46 PM LudvanB has responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 105 (3292)
02-01-2002 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by LudvanB
01-30-2002 11:07 PM


"I am well aware that it makes this condemnation and as i said,its merely reflecting the opinions held by the men who wrote the Bible,much that nonsense about multi-thread clothings. This is what is called a cultural bias and there actually a very secular explanation on possibly why the early hebrew saw fit to put this nonsense in their holy book. If you're interested i'll tell you about it."
--Tell me about it.

------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by LudvanB, posted 01-30-2002 11:07 PM LudvanB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by LudvanB, posted 02-02-2002 6:53 AM TrueCreation has responded

  
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