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Author Topic:   What is GOD?
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 97 (216805)
06-14-2005 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by mike the wiz
06-14-2005 11:52 AM


Drop it
You're getting close to the line.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by mike the wiz, posted 06-14-2005 11:52 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 2897 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 77 of 97 (216807)
06-14-2005 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by mike the wiz
06-14-2005 11:45 AM


What have miracles and grace got to do with Benny Hinn?

I was going to ask you the same question. I was looking for the closest thing to real-life modern-day miracles I could fine. Unfortunately, all I could come up with is the quackery of Benny Hinn. His followers do believe he heals people and he is a Christian.

I meant that our experiences are as the bible describes.

Ah, I do apologize, I see what you mean now. One thing I'd ask you is do you think having read the Bible, and you yourself have stated that you must believe BEFORE you can "know" -- does that not in some ways nullify the claim that all the experiences are the same?

There was a very interesting documentary on Benny Hinn that suggested (among many other things) that the attendees were so caught in the moment and already had knowledge of what was "supposed" to happen when Mr. Hinn touched them on the forehead, that it would just happen.

Possibly even unconsciously for them. They expected it so much, it was.

Anyway, this might be getting off topic.

Yet you will still say I have not provided evidence according to how you define it

The problem with your definition of evidence is it provides nothing to a point, so why even have or consider evidence?

I could say proudly proclaim "I have felt the energron of our Lord Megatron, leader of the Decepticons and ruler of worlds inside my inner being!"

This is fine, one is certainly entitled to believe in Megatron and the Decepticons, but to call that evidence is just incorrect -- no matter how you slice it. Your personal belief is not evidence because one can believe whatever they want to.

Example of a self-righteouss evo; "erm, evolution isn't proven but there is loads of evidence"

Nothing is "proven" in the scientific studies you're referring to. We rely on evidence to make decisions and conclude theory accordingly. Black holes, dark matter, evolution, et cetera, are not proven. In science this is different than how, for example, Michael Jackson was not "proven" guilty.

Sure, evolution hasn't been proven. So then what does loads of evidence mean?

It means that if you pick up a burger and it's drenched in tabasco sauce, you don't need to take a bit to know that you'll be sorry. You can analyze the evidence and come to a conclusion.

ON EDIT: I've been called much worse than "Chump." :)

This message has been edited by dsv, Tuesday, June 14, 2005 01:02 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by mike the wiz, posted 06-14-2005 11:45 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by mike the wiz, posted 06-14-2005 2:33 PM dsv has not yet responded
 Message 79 by lfen, posted 06-14-2005 10:25 PM dsv has responded
 Message 82 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-15-2005 9:53 AM dsv has responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 78 of 97 (216818)
06-14-2005 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by dsv
06-14-2005 12:58 PM


ahaha, any experience of the wiz will tell you that I don't do personal attacks, Infact, the word "chump" just amuses me as words do. You can check my signature if you don't believe me. :)It's just the un-erring and brilliantly irrefutable nature of the wiz that forces me to keep up the banter of sorts, to keep the fans happy. :laugh:

While there is a modern definition of evidence and a more ancient one, the bible is clear as to what evidences God. This is evidence, and is considered evidence. We could I suppose, have a majority who decides to agree on what evidence actually is, but does it matter if another majority also have a working definition?

As for correlating experiences, I simply mean that testimonies of how people feel the power of God come over them, are the same as they've always been. But with things like alien abduction, the aliens change in appearance according to the times. :)

In the burger example, you can be sure that if you believe in Christ, and ask to be healed, you will be.

This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 06-14-2005 02:34 PM


Wow - what a big and huge gargantua of add hominem poppycock delirium. If I've been arrogant or rude, please quote me. I really don't know what caused this huge off-topic attack on the character of irrefutable brilliance in which I embody.~ mike the wiz ~
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by dsv, posted 06-14-2005 12:58 PM dsv has not yet responded

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 2850 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 79 of 97 (216977)
06-14-2005 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by dsv
06-14-2005 12:58 PM


dsv,

Just something to consider. I don't think Mike is a troll or a flamer. He seems to crave attention and has devised several annoying techniques to get it. Basically if you argue with him you get more of what you've just seen. He'll go on and on happy that people are paying attention to him. If you enjoy engaging someone who specializes in childish debate tactics by all means enjoy yourself. I personally recommend ignoring him. Although I've said he isn't a troll he does like a troll feed on the attention his childish behaviour elicts.

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by dsv, posted 06-14-2005 12:58 PM dsv has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by dsv, posted 06-14-2005 10:33 PM lfen has responded
 Message 84 by mike the wiz, posted 06-15-2005 10:38 AM lfen has not yet responded

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 2897 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 80 of 97 (216980)
06-14-2005 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by lfen
06-14-2005 10:25 PM


Thank you for the suggestion lfen. I was considering this to be the end of this particular thread as Mike hasn't really provided any kind of new information in his most recent rebuttal.

Unless he brings to the table something other than "my evidence is better than your evidence because only I know my evidence" I don't see any reason to continue going in circles.

I'm hoping my thread on post-darwainism gains some attention so I can spend more time there.

BTW lfen, I very much enjoy your posts, in this thread and others. I've learned a thing or two from them indeed.

This message has been edited by dsv, Tuesday, June 14, 2005 10:34 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by lfen, posted 06-14-2005 10:25 PM lfen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by lfen, posted 06-15-2005 12:20 AM dsv has not yet responded

    
lfen
Member (Idle past 2850 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 81 of 97 (217002)
06-15-2005 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by dsv
06-14-2005 10:33 PM


Unless he brings to the table something other than "my evidence is better than your evidence because only I know my evidence" I don't see any reason to continue going in circles.

Yeah, you got it and that's it; the same circle over and over.

I checked your thread out. I'm ignorant on those issues so will simply follow it. Thank you for the positive feedback on my posts.

lfen

This message has been edited by lfen, 06-14-2005 09:22 PM


This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12445
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 82 of 97 (217087)
06-15-2005 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by dsv
06-14-2005 12:58 PM


Megatron: Spiritually inspired?
You have a point concerning belief being a relative concept. I do not agree only because I have heard so many good preachers that have a spark about them that mere positive thinking seminars and/or sci-fi fantasy gods just can't duplicate.

Benny Hinn is definitely not the best that organized media evangelism has to offer. Most of the best preachers that I have heard are on the radio (or the internet) Here are three of the best:

Pastor Alistair Begg and his scottish accent provide an entertaining sermon that is not just showy. Begg argues with passion. A true apologist.

Chuck Swindoll is an old timer with a great attitude. Even for the non-believer, Swindoll has good philosophical advice.

Pastor Raul Ries is a great example of a "spirit-led" preacher. He knows his Bible and uses it to frame his sermon philosophy. You may not agree that the Bible is inspired but if you listen to Pastor Raul you will see how many Christian literalists think and why the Bible is so important to them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by dsv, posted 06-14-2005 12:58 PM dsv has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by dsv, posted 06-15-2005 10:10 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 2897 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 83 of 97 (217092)
06-15-2005 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Thugpreacha
06-15-2005 9:53 AM


Re: Megatron: Spiritually inspired?
I know there are very good preachers out there that inspire a lot of people, no question. They're not healing people's illnesses though. Benny Hinn is, if you believe him (which I doubt anyone here does).

If you believe in the Bible and Jesus I don't see why it would be such a far stretch to believe that Benny Hinn can make someone well. It would also be an excellent evidence ground for the Bible. I believe it even states specifically that believers will be able to heal other believers (I can look this up).

Why can't Benny Hinn be legit if you're already believing everything else in the Bible?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-15-2005 9:53 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-15-2005 1:56 PM dsv has not yet responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 84 of 97 (217107)
06-15-2005 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by lfen
06-14-2005 10:25 PM


Ifen, I don't know what sparked this irrelevant add hominem attack on my character. 99% of the time, I am just debating like anyone else. I called DSV a chump for a tiny bit of fun, he said it's okay and now he agrees with your off- topic intolerance of me.

What people don't realize is that they too repeat and repeat theor ideology, and it frustrates the hell out of me.

I;ve told Shraff a thousand times that I don't believe out of fear, and then I'll see her debating belief because of fear in another thread.

I suggest you go to my new topic to discuss this further, but at the moment, I see this as an off-topic distraction and unexpected attack on me. I must assume that because I can't be refuted, I'm seen as an irritation who seeks attention. You're entitled to your opinion and judgements, but I thought you were a good guy!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by lfen, posted 06-14-2005 10:25 PM lfen has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by dsv, posted 06-15-2005 11:05 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 2897 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 85 of 97 (217115)
06-15-2005 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by mike the wiz
06-15-2005 10:38 AM


I enjoyed the debate Mike, at any rate. Don't get hung up.

No worries.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by mike the wiz, posted 06-15-2005 10:38 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

    
mikehager
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 86 of 97 (217148)
06-15-2005 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by mike the wiz
06-14-2005 8:35 AM


Now that I have calmed down...
I can reply.

What constitutes evidence in Mike the Wiz's opinion is unimportatnt. Real evidence conforms to the principles of science or, and of less value, logic.

John 14:11
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

Acts 11:23
When he arrived and saw the evidence of the grace of God, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts.

So it seems miracles and grace can be evidence of God. Indeed, I am witness to both.

How can the Bible be a reliable source for a definition of evidence? No two believers in it can arrive at the same interpertation of it's contents.

The creation is evidence of God's qualities Mike.

ID proponets and creationists have been claiming this for a very long time and the argument has proved utterly unconvincing to those that approach it rationally and without the presupposition of a creator. No reasonable person believes it when Michael Behe says it and you're a good deal less persuasive then he is.

Furthermore, if being a witness is evidence...

It isn't, unless the things witnessed is repeatable and observable.

I know very much about logic and science, I am just not under the authority of it. Get over the fact that I know it in and out yet don't accept it over God.

I'm sorry Mike, but you don't. That has been clearly shown by pretty much your entire posting career at this forum.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by mike the wiz, posted 06-14-2005 8:35 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by mike the wiz, posted 06-15-2005 12:54 PM mikehager has responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 87 of 97 (217155)
06-15-2005 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by mikehager
06-15-2005 12:20 PM


Re: Now that I have calmed down...
That's a misconception mike.

As a member of a christian forum group, we agree on almost everything in the scripture, yet here you are telling us we don't.

Lot's of outlooks have nothing to do with the scripture itself, but outside influences. That's a logical error Mike. You can't blame the bible as a faulty source because of people's interpretation. You again underestimate my capability of thinking.

For example, evolution. No believer would doubt Genesis unless they heard about evolution, an external factor. This means that it's not necessarily the scriptures fault that people would interpret things differently. Isn't that logical? Therefore it is not the bible which is not reliable. There you go Mike, a prime example of how I can use logic.

Is that logical enough for you? Oh and you said

" I'm sorry Mike, but you don't. That has been clearly shown by pretty much your entire posting career at this forum. "

Sure you don't want to take that back at this stage?

What constitutes evidence in Mike the Wiz's opinion is unimportatnt

It's not what I say is evidence, as I quoted Christ.

It is irrelevant as to what science thinks is evidence, or how it is to be used.

I'm sorry Mike, but you don't. That has been clearly shown by pretty much your entire posting career at this forum.

I know enough.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by mikehager, posted 06-15-2005 12:20 PM mikehager has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by mikehager, posted 06-15-2005 1:38 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
mikehager
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 88 of 97 (217167)
06-15-2005 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by mike the wiz
06-15-2005 12:54 PM


Re: Now that I have calmed down...
No believer would doubt Genesis unless they heard about evolution, an external factor. This means that it's not necessarily the scriptures fault that people would interpret things differently. Isn't that logical? Therefore it is not the bible which is not reliable. There you go Mike, a prime example of how I can use logic.

Is that logical enough for you?

No. The veracity and accuracy of a text is supported by the fact that people believe it if it is their only source of information and then many see it's flaws when they get more information? No, that doesn't make any sense at all.

It's not what I say is evidence, as I quoted Christ.

Oh. Then, if there actually wes a man named "Christ", which is entirely unproven, and he actually said what the Bible claims, which is also unproven, then he was wrong about what constitutes evidence in a modern framework.

" I'm sorry Mike, but you don't. That has been clearly shown by pretty much your entire posting career at this forum. "

Sure you don't want to take that back at this stage?

No. I don't see any reason to in your post.

I know enough.

That decleration is one I would never make. I never know enough and I never can. That you think you do is indicative of a problem among theists in America, in my opinion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by mike the wiz, posted 06-15-2005 12:54 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by mike the wiz, posted 06-15-2005 3:08 PM mikehager has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12445
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 89 of 97 (217171)
06-15-2005 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by dsv
06-15-2005 10:10 AM


Re: Megatron: Spiritually inspired?
God COULD use Benny Hinn as a healer, much as many believe He also used Oral Roberts. Technically, however, such cases only mean that a persons Faith has made them well.

I suppose that I should not be so judgemental towards Mr. Hinn, and I will admit that I am only judging him based on what I have read.

God used a Donkey to talk to and restrain the madness of a prophet.

I believe that any prayer can lead to healing, in Gods providence.

I would be more inclined to pray for wisdom to the professional Doctors and care providers who help many many patients.

Listen to the preachers in my link. These are some of the better ones that are out there. THAT was my main point.

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 06-15-2005 11:56 AM


This message is a reply to:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 90 of 97 (217203)
06-15-2005 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by mikehager
06-15-2005 1:38 PM


ADDENDUM
ADDENDUM

Mike, people having evolution rule their lives instead of God's words is not the bible's fault. That is a ludicrous suggestion.

This is my final post in this thread, I am forced to suggest that I am irrefutably unrefuted.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by mikehager, posted 06-15-2005 1:38 PM mikehager has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by kjsimons, posted 06-15-2005 3:14 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 92 by mikehager, posted 06-15-2005 3:21 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
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