Supernatural? I thought it was anyway...

Before becoming a Christian, a girl in Russia whose grandmother was a gypsy read cards, and either she was KGB and had a secret file or she was accurate. I don't believe she was KGB. I think her gypsy grandmother really had taught her how to use some witchcraft with cards.She said a lot of things she wouldn't have known about it, described a girl I had broken up with; and the girl I would marry; that when I returned to the States my Dad would give me a present, something that was paper "like money" [he gave my stock], and then she grew a little afraid, and she didn't want to talk about it. I pressed her, and she just showed me my life line a clear break near the time of my birth, and said normally you would die but sometimes but rarely if "people love you a lot" [more like love and prayed a lot], you could live.When I was born, I indeed almost died and again when I was about 2.I looked at that line closely, and it would appear I was in trouble. I don't want to go into more details, but there's more to it, and the stuff was accurate, though weak compared to things of God, and I lived through the upcoming crisis.The most supernatural stuff I've ever experienced and witnessed came from the hand of God, and it's quite common in certain quarters to see miracles happening, people getting miraculously healed, deliverances, words of knowledge and things like that.This message has been edited by randman, 08-18-2005 11:22 AM

Well I have yet to hear of a miracle. Most can be explained away. Yes sometimes people seem to be miraculously cured, but then again the body is an amazing thing. Sometimes things just happen there is an incredible coincidence. Does this mean a miracle happened? No.

It's funny because growing up I felt the same way, but I found to my surprise such things do happen, and happen a lot. It's not just coincidence and some miracles of healing are way beyond the body just healing itself, but I've learned trying to prove things to a skeptic doesn't always work.I'll give you a couple of examples. A guy broke his leg a couple days before and came to a church I was part of in Chapel Hill, NC, and he received prayer, and wasn't aware of anything, but went and had it X-rayed just to see, and the bone was healed, and they took the cast off.I've seen people's dental work be repaired or updated in various ways at the hand of God, which is not something the body can generally do on it's own, both replacing in one day fillings with tooth enamel, and gold fillings with intricate drawings put on them replacing older fillings. Keep in mind fillings awhile back were not tooth-colored but lead-colored or gold.But in general, none of this means anything to a skeptic. Heck, during some of these things, I knew some of the people personally and offerred to provide my skeptic brothers dental records.I think in hindsight that we are not really supposed to go around trying to show off or use the miracles of God to "prove" to those that don't want to hear anyway, and have generally gotten away from trying to prove or publicize miracles, though I have done it in the past. People can believe someone like myself is lying or not. It's not up to me to try to force it on them.

Anyone can provide anecdotal evidence. BUt where are the hard cold facts and proof. I don't think you are lying. I think you truly believe it. THe guy with the broken leg. I am sure there are not before and after x-rays that can be independently verified. The same with the dental. If there was a god I sure as hell would wish he could take care of something a bit more important than a cavity. Starving children would be a good start. Or is he making them suffer because their parents sinned? Or to make a point?

In christian theology, God doesn't make anyone suffer. Man suffers as a result of his own actions (ultimately, although satan and fallen demons are seen as an impetus to the fall/suffering, the choice still rested on man).

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"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." John Stuart Mill

quote:

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Watch the South Park about John Edwards.

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I am reminded of the scene in Being John Malkovitch where John Cusack uses "cold reading" to figure out Maxine's (played by Catherine Keener) name. It was hilarious.

So why would he replace fillings with enamel?And what did the starving children do to deserve his wrath?

The X-rays were done and probably still available, though it's been a long time.But you raise an interesting point. Why does God allow us to suffer when He could change all that?There are answers, but that gets us into theology. Part of the answer is you have to take the long view. Why does a parent allow the suffering of forcing a toddler to not throw food on the floor?Well, that may not be the best example. The tragidies of this life are immense, and if you have experienced great suffering, it is indeed difficult to maintain the eternal perspective.Jesus, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, who was so poor that he lived on the street as a beggar and the dogs licked his sores, brings up this issue. The poor man is rewarded in Paradise while the rich man that ignored Lazarus's condition was in hell.I think in some respects the ones that don't suffer, live in luxory, and have no heart or action towards the poor are the ones to be most pitied, and the Lazarus's of the world, if righteous, may enjoy blessings beyond anything we have ever imagined.To much is given, much is expected. Likewise, those that are not given much are judged accordingly. Riches, talent, and opportunity are great, but they come with far more responsibility than probably any of us can realize, and I speak for myself as well, and am concerned at times for how I will be judged, having been born in this nation with far more opportunity and wealth than much of the rest of the world.The question is what we are doing about the poor children?Not what is God doing about it? He let us know He will even things out, but down here, we've got a responsibility to take care of the poor and our fellow human beings in this world.

One common theme is the fact that non-believeres are just as apt to believe in no supernatural beforehand and find exlanations that confirm their beliefs.
Believers are just the opposite. They already are predisposed to belief beforehand.It is just as hard for you to consider that there COULD be a supernatural as it is for me to consider that there COULD NOT.I have yet to bow to human wisdom as the final authority....humans are flawed, imperfect, and not that bright in the grand scheme of things.

The OP. Nothing was said during the main session. There are 26 letters in the alphabet. The medium wasn't asked what the dads nickname was. She wasn't asked anything. She did all the talking until the end, unprompted. She came up with nickname, dad with newspaper, mammies hip etc as subjects ... and picked T for the nickname. What she did say is the issue - not why she didn't say something else. Not in Ireland they don't. Childhood friends of mine; Boker, Doker, Soker(brothers!), Cozer, Doyler, Dunne (not really a nickname), Redser, Spairo... and me, Hicks. Not one of us (and I still know them all) has another nickname now that differs from when they were a child - - which is when a person typically gets nicknames. The medium was operating in Ireland where nicknames stick so wouldn't be on a winner if she kept on picking things with 1/26 chance of success. This doesn't tally with the vague/wrong stuff (30%)This message has been edited by iano, 18-Aug-2005 06:31 PM

I'd have no problem thinking that with a bit of subtletly and trickery an excellent reading could be done. I think the problem with this particular medium (see OP) was that nothing was said from word go. He said on the phone that he wouldn't be saying a word - for the very reason you suggest fraud. She wasn't asking questions. She just talked about whatever she talked about. Unprompted and unsupported - except for deliberately false expressions. These weren't given as a result of questions she posed. He just threw them in as he saw fit. It was the story of his dad - the newspaper pose which genuinely suprised him. I know this character. He is deadpan as can be - he is anyway when he presents invoices to me and I hit the ceiling!

Maybe nothing was said verbally.
I was just in a comunications training seminar last week and was surprised to learn that most Experts believe that as little as 6% of what we comunicate is done verbally. A further 10% or so is down to tone of voice and a whopping 85% of comunication is by means of body language.A skilled cold reader can play an audience like a musical instrument and change the script based on body language alone.Now a true test would be if the reader and the "victim" were in seperate rooms or were seperated by some kind of screen or something. Know of any tests like that?

Your right MJ. An ill-considered post. Suffice to say at the time I would have been a total skeptic, would have prided myself in rational thinking and as an engineer, would have analysed the potential for fraud knowing that nobody can make something out of nothing. It was precisely that and my friends own skepticism (though he still did go - strange) that made us go to the lengths we did to avoid fraud. No matter what detail is added, it will never be enough to get beyond: believers believe, non-believers don't.Should have realised that at the start.Right, onto something else....

Now that's what I call a good idea. Must check out my mate and see if he'll go back again.

Wait...were you present at the session?People don't remember saying things to the charlatans, either, strangely enough. You often find people saying "S/He told me X" when in fact the victim had previously told the charlatan that very fact earlier, despite the victim swearing otherwise.Who knows, maybe this event, which sounds like 1000's of other descriptions of similar events, is the real one. Yet EVERY time one of these sessions is recorded for later review under conditions where the charlatan cannot access personal information beforehand, the cold reading is utterly apparent.Without that recording of the session, I'm going with parsimony. We know that accounts very similar to yours have been explained by cold reading. Until I get better evidence than third hand reports of the session, my working assumption is that this is cold reading as well.This message has been edited by Zhimbo, 08-18-2005 02:01 PMThis message has been edited by Zhimbo, 08-18-2005 02:03 PM