Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-19-2019 2:52 PM
30 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 854,150 Year: 9,186/19,786 Month: 1,608/2,119 Week: 368/576 Day: 43/128 Hour: 5/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
9101112
13
14Next
Author Topic:   Thou Shalts and Thou Shalnts
ringo
Member
Posts: 16637
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 181 of 204 (254916)
10-26-2005 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by iano
10-26-2005 2:47 PM


Re: Purpose of the Law
Others who are reading this don't care whether I accept your findings or not.

If you can show that Paul thought that condemnation was the only purpose of the law, then show it.

If you can show that Jesus thought that condemnation was the only purpose of the law, then show it.


People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by iano, posted 10-26-2005 2:47 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by iano, posted 10-27-2005 4:48 AM ringo has responded
 Message 183 by iano, posted 10-27-2005 4:54 AM ringo has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 182 of 204 (255009)
10-27-2005 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by ringo
10-26-2005 3:08 PM


Re: Purpose of the Law
I seriously doubt that the world is watching us Ringo. But if others have been following this, then they may hold the view that it matters quite a lot whether or not grounds for discussion with the person with whom I am discussing, are established. Lack of establishment means a potential return to counters from you such as: "those writing are corrupted", "that is Pauline doctrine only", "we know that Johns gospel doesn't match up with the others" and other such Herrings Rouge.

Clarification required on this matter (for the purposes of discussion only of course :) )


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by ringo, posted 10-26-2005 3:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by ringo, posted 10-27-2005 11:25 AM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 183 of 204 (255010)
10-27-2005 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by ringo
10-26-2005 3:08 PM


Re: Purpose of the Law
delete content: double post

This message has been edited by iano, 27-Oct-2005 10:00 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by ringo, posted 10-26-2005 3:08 PM ringo has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16637
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 184 of 204 (255100)
10-27-2005 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by iano
10-27-2005 4:48 AM


Re: Purpose of the Law
iano writes:

Lack of establishment means a potential return to counters from you such as: "those writing are corrupted", "that is Pauline doctrine only", "we know that Johns gospel doesn't match up with the others" and other such Herrings Rouge

Put up your evidence.

Then our readers can evaluate it for themselves.


People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by iano, posted 10-27-2005 4:48 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by iano, posted 10-27-2005 2:32 PM ringo has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 185 of 204 (255144)
10-27-2005 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by ringo
10-27-2005 11:25 AM


Re: Purpose of the Law
'tis with you I am discussing Ringo. I have no obligation to anyone else. And it's with you, that the unestablished terms for discussion apply I'm afraid.

Going, going...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by ringo, posted 10-27-2005 11:25 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 10-27-2005 6:00 PM iano has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16637
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 186 of 204 (255185)
10-27-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by iano
10-27-2005 2:32 PM


Re: Purpose of the Law
You can run but you can't hide.

You should have more respect for your fellow members. If you don't have the backup for your assertions, admit it to them. Don't try to loophole your way out of it by misrepresenting the "terms of discussion".

I think I have made my position fairly clear and backed it up with scripture: The law is for our benefit, not God's. We are to receive blessing and knowledge from it, not just condemnation. If anybody has any points they want me to clarify, they're welcome to ask.

Now, why don't you do us all the courtesy of answering the questions you've been asked without trying to weasel out on every technicality?


People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by iano, posted 10-27-2005 2:32 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 4:52 AM ringo has not yet responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4714 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 187 of 204 (255261)
10-28-2005 3:02 AM


A General Reply
Galations 3:19 NIV writes:


What, then, was the purpose of the law?

It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.

Here's another passage...

Romans 2:11-13 NIV writes:

For God does not show favoritism.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

There's this...

Romans 5:12-14 NIV writes:

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned —- for before the law was given, sin was in the world.

But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

Here's another...

Galatians 3:23-25 writes:

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

And finally this...

Ephesians 2:11-16 NIV writes:


Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Again, I do agree that we cannot maintain the law. I think most people would agree with me on this. But I don't think that the fact that we couldn't fulfill it was its ultimate purpose. Rather, in my opinion anyway, the law was set forth to reveal Christ -- therefore pointing to salvation.


Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 6:27 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 188 of 204 (255267)
10-28-2005 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by ringo
10-27-2005 6:00 PM


Re: Purpose of the Law
iano writes:

Going, going...

....gone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 10-27-2005 6:00 PM ringo has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 106 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 189 of 204 (255270)
10-28-2005 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-28-2005 3:02 AM


Re: A General Reply
mrx writes:

Again, I do agree that we cannot maintain the law. I think most people would agree with me on this. But I don't think that the fact that we couldn't fulfill it was its ultimate purpose. Rather, in my opinion anyway, the law was set forth to reveal Christ -- therefore pointing to salvation.

I agree except for ultimate purpose. Given this progress, lets see how far we agree here.

The law was set forth to point the way to salvation (or "the law is a schoolteacher to lead us to Christ" as Galatians 3:24 puts the actual purpose a few verses on from your Galations quote).

Schoolteacher? Discipline, education, authority, guidance. This is the law and it has a purpose like you say - to lead us to the way of salvation. The law itself doesn't save, it just points the way to the way of salvation.

Salvation: saved from something. In order to be saved from something, someone has to be in danger of something else. The law, being a school teacher, an educator, is going to lead a person to the means of salvation by education/discipline/authority. It is going to teach and expose person to the the very great danger they are in.

And what possible danger can it be other than the fact that lawbreakers will be condemned under law. The lesson that needs to be learned is a) the law sets an impossibly high standard b) no one can keep the standard c) the law cannot be set aside d) lawbreakers will be condemned. Condemnation is guaranteed for everyone who is under the reign and influence of the law.

But there is nothing wrong with the law. The law is good. And the law itself cannot be set aside or ignored. That wouldn't be just. In order to be saved from being condemned by it something dramatic has got to happen. The person must be removed to a position safe from the law. Somewhere where the law cannot touch them. Out from under law and into Christ

The ultimate purpose of the law?
The only way the law can point the way to Christ is to condemn you. It can do no other thing. And if a person is shown that this is their state then they can only do one thing. Cry out for mercy.

What could be a more noble, worthwhile and important purpose for the law other than to be a mechanism of salvation of people God loves so much.

For the life of me I can't think of one


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-28-2005 3:02 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 10-28-2005 11:48 AM iano has not yet responded
 Message 192 by truthlover, posted 10-28-2005 1:05 PM iano has not yet responded
 Message 194 by truthlover, posted 10-28-2005 1:25 PM iano has not yet responded
 Message 196 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 2:53 AM iano has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16637
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 190 of 204 (255338)
10-28-2005 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by iano
10-28-2005 6:27 AM


Re: A General Reply
iano writes:

What could be a more noble, worthwhile and important purpose for the law other than to be a mechanism of salvation of people God loves so much.

A "more noble, worthwhile and important purpose" would be to improve our lives, to show us how to treat each other. Hence Jesus' summation of the law: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Hence "whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me."

It makes no sense to say that the law condemns us and then say that the law is a mechanism for salvation. The law saves us from itself? There again you are postulating a sadistic god, who throws us in the river just so he can pull us out and be a big hero.


People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 6:27 AM iano has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by truthlover, posted 10-28-2005 1:02 PM ringo has responded

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2225 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 191 of 204 (255347)
10-28-2005 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by ringo
10-28-2005 11:48 AM


Re: A General Reply
It makes no sense to say that the law condemns us and then say that the law is a mechanism for salvation.

While I would hate to be found agreeing with Jano on anything having to do with salvation, I don't think is a fair representation of what (s)he said.

Jano's position is that the law's purpose is indeed to show us how to treat each other, but the result is that it shows us that we don't treat each other that way, thus condemning us. The resulting condemnation drives us to Christ.

Actually, I guess I do agree with him, sort of. Paul's letter to the Romans says that Christ died so that "the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." There's a means to living out the requirement of the law, but that means is the Spirit of Christ. The law's purpose is to show our need for help and thus drive us to Christ, who can help.

There's a pretty fascinating passage from the Letter to Diognetus, dated around AD 100 (plus or minus a couple decades), about this:

quote:
As long then as the former time endured, He permitted us to be borne along by unruly impulses, being drawn away by the desire of pleasure and various lusts. This was not that He at all delighted in our sins, but that He simply endured them; nor that He approved the time of working iniquity which then was, but that He sought to form a mind conscious of righteousness, so that being convinced in that time of our unworthiness of attaining life through our own works, it should now, through the kindness of God, be vouchsafed to us; and having made it manifest that in ourselves we were unable to enter into the kingdom of God, we might through the power of God be made able.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 10-28-2005 11:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 10-28-2005 1:15 PM truthlover has responded

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2225 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 192 of 204 (255350)
10-28-2005 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by iano
10-28-2005 6:27 AM


Re: A General Reply
And what possible danger can it be other than the fact that lawbreakers will be condemned under law.

It could be that they could see the righteousness of the law, wanted to do it, but found themselves unable. Thus, they wanted to be saved from themselves and their own sin, weakness, and failings, and it could have nothing or little to do with danger or condemnation.

Re Rom 7


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 6:27 AM iano has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16637
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 193 of 204 (255354)
10-28-2005 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by truthlover
10-28-2005 1:02 PM


Re: A General Reply
truthlover writes:

Jano's position is that the law's purpose is indeed to show us how to treat each other, but the result is that it shows us that we don't treat each other that way, thus condemning us. The resulting condemnation drives us to Christ.

If that is indeed what iano is saying, I have no problem with that.

But what he said back in Message 6 was:

quote:
The law is there to condemn you. It's sole purpose is to make you feel condemned. Should you ever reach that point, then the law will have done exactly what it's supposed to do.

That's what I've been banging on about: the focus on condemnation. If iano agrees that the ultimate purpose of the law is to "show us how to treat each other", then we agree on that. :)


People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by truthlover, posted 10-28-2005 1:02 PM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by truthlover, posted 10-28-2005 1:26 PM ringo has not yet responded

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2225 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 194 of 204 (255355)
10-28-2005 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by iano
10-28-2005 6:27 AM


Re: A General Reply
And what possible danger can it be other than the fact that lawbreakers will be condemned under law. The lesson that needs to be learned is a) the law sets an impossibly high standard b) no one can keep the standard c) the law cannot be set aside d) lawbreakers will be condemned.

Hmm.

quote:
Ps 18:20,21: Yahweh rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he has recompensed me. For I have kept the ways of Yahweh, and I have not wickedly departed from my God...I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from inquity.

Gen 6:9: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations.

Heb 11:4: By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous.

1 Jn 3:12: ...not like Cain, who was of the devil and slew his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his own works were evil and his brother's righteous.

1 Kings 15:14: But the high places were not removed. Nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with Yahweh all his days.

2 Kings 20:3: (Prayer by Hezekiah, this prayer was answered with 15 additional years of life, so we can assume he wasn't wrong about himself.) I beg you, O Yahweh, remember now how I have walked before you in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done what is good in your sight.

Job 1:1: There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job: and that man was perfect and upright, one that feared God and eschewed evil.


This is not an exhaustive list.

I don't think the law sets an impossibly high standard. Even Paul himself was keeping it. ("Blameless" is the word he used, I believe.) Its condemnation is just, because it can be kept.

In fact, its condemnation is all the more just, because pardon for those who repent has always been available to those who will turn again to obedience (Ez 3:18,19). Nehemiah 9:17 is a great example of that. "They refused to obey, nor were they mindful of your wonders...but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage, but you are a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and you did not forsake them."

Is 55:7: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts. Let him return to Yahweh, and he will have mercy on him; and to our God, because he will abundantly pardon.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by iano, posted 10-28-2005 6:27 AM iano has not yet responded

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2225 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 195 of 204 (255356)
10-28-2005 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by ringo
10-28-2005 1:15 PM


Re: A General Reply
That's what I've been banging on about: the focus on condemnation. If iano agrees that the ultimate purpose of the law is to "show us how to treat each other", then we agree on that.

Ok. You're right. I didn't have time to read the start of the thread, but it is obvious Jano harps on condemnation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 10-28-2005 1:15 PM ringo has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
9101112
13
14Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019