What did I Misunderstand, Zachariah?

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The people that wrote the history books were there and it was passed down in many cases. The most important thing to realize is that they are more recent events and easier for us to check up on.

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About two years ago, my mother, my daughter and I were walking across a bridge that crossed the Wabash River. It was during our rainy season, so the river was high. When we got to the middle of the bridge we saw a young lady standing on the outside of the rail. Just as we realized she was on the outside of the railing, she jumped into the river! With our trusty mobile phone we dialed 911 and kept an eye on her in the river. She didn't yell for help or try to swim to shore. She had jumped in on purpose.What is the point of this story you ask. Well someone jumping off a bridge brings the news media. Now my family and I were the only ones on the bridge besides the jumper. There were some people on the bank, but they didn't see her jump, just heard the splash. When the police and the reporters came, we told them what we saw. When we watched the news and read the newspaper, they stated that the young lady was walking along the outside of the bridge and fell in.The point being that we told the facts within minutes of the incident and the writer still got it wrong. The TV people hadn't even talked with us, so I'm not sure where they got their info. We were the only eyewitnesses.There have been various newspaper articles written about me or one of my family members over the years and it never fails, they always manage to get some facts wrong or the intent of the story wrong.So what are the odds that the writers in the NT or OT didn't make any mistakes?I don't argue the little errors in the Bible, unless they claim it is in the OT.
I have a problem with the big claims. Such as:Jesus is the anointed one of the Jews
Eternal Life
Eternal SalvationIf these claims of the NT are truth, then they must be substantiated by the OT. So when you read the NT and then check the OT for confirmation, make sure you don't rely on DTs (Dogma/Tradition) as fact either.I can see I'm not going to be able to give you short answers. I'm long winded today. But I will break them up into separate posts so no one will doze off in the middle.INTERMISSION

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The Bible is simply a map, a guide. It was written by a whole host of people. Much of it, in fact nearly all of it, is simply parable. It is a collection of short stories meant to provide lessons for how best to live a good life.

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I also enjoy reading the Jewish and Native American stories. More great lessons.

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What we found was that far from being savages, the Cherokees were successful farmers and land owners, the best educated and most prosperous people in the area.

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Check out this site about the Iroquois Women.Needless to say, the history presented to us in school is very selective.

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I have always heard the gospels as "the gospel according to _________" that gives it's ownership. You all have alot of trouble allowing yourselves to let go and except that.

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In the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel, his expert Craig Bloomberg states: "It's important to acknowledge that strictly speaking, the gospels are anonymous."The authorship of these books are by tradition only. By family tradition my grandfather was born in OK. After a lot of researching I finally found out he was born in the county next to where I grew up in IN. As a genealogist I find a lot of problems with tradition.Would you "let go" and entertain the claims of the Mormon, John Smith? They do know he is the author of his book. Rumor has it that changes have been made, but I don't know about that.

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Do you know everything?

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No I do not, but I don't admit that to my daughter.
You will also find that neither do clergy, evangelist, sages, elders, NT writers, OT writers, nor politicians. No human can know everything, but we do know what is right for our individual self and survival.

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courage to say maybe this bible is true

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I searched for the truth. I piously read the skeptics claims and then zealously searched through the NT, OT and apologetics to disprove their outrageous claims. Unfortunately, I found the apologetics to be lame and the NT and OT hung themselves out to dry.Like I've said before, there is wisdom in the Bible. The wisdom doesn't usually have anything supernatural attached to it. Several cultures have wise sayings that help to guide people through life. I pass on lessons I've learned from my experiences to my daughter.OK I'm winding down now.

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Is there a possibility that GOD doesn't exist? In my mind, no.

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And that is great for you. If you have a good life and are happy, then hang on.Organized religion is not condusive to my happiness. Been there done that with all my heart. I feel that organized religion is manmade.So if I decide to search for a supreme being, it won't be there.I really have no words for where I am right now, except peaceful.So don't lose your peace.I think I'm done now. Have a great day!

Absolutely incredible.This would be a better place if everyone got an experience like that early in life.

Joseph Vann, known as "Rich Joe", was a wealthy Cherokee whose large plantation at Springplace GA was worked by hundreds of African slaves. He died in 1844 when his steamboat, the Lucy Walker, exploded during a race on the Ohio River. The Vann House at Springplace GA was built by James Vann and inherited by his son Joseph "Rich Joe" Vann. In 1833, his mansion was confiscated by Col. William Bishop of the Georgia Guard (militia) and the neighboring Moravian mission school was turned into Georgia Guard headquarters. At the time of removal, Rich Joe's property valuation showed him as the second richest man in the Nation. Stand Watie, signer of the Treaty of New Echota. Of the four main leaders of the Treaty Party (the others being Major Ridge, John Ridge, and Elias Boudinot), he was the only one to escape assasination in 1839. Siding with the Confederacy in the American Civil War, he rose to the rank of Brigider General -- the only Native American general in the Civil War. He holds the distinction of being the last Confederate general to surrender -- June 23, 1865 -- two months after Lee's surrender in Virginia.

just a few things that tend to get overlooked in History books. Thanks for the pictures. By the way, the Vann House is an awsome place to visit. It's still maintained by the Georgia Department of Natural Resources.Not quite the image of Savages so often shown in the History Books.Z---.You are doing great, please don't stop. But also, don't limit your quest for knowledge.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Brian you have got to be the dumbest person I've come across in this forum in a long time. Again reading into my statements your own BS. You get my faith as an insurance policy? Do you understand that I was saying "IF I WERE TO SAY GOD DOESN'T EXIST" I believe in Christ for the plain fact of faith. I don't do it because there is nothing better out there. If I believe in Christ because it's the best hing at that time then I don't have faith and no salvation. I can't get to heaven believing that way. Nobody can. I was trying to get you hard headed folks to see a point. That if "you" a nonbeliever believe it you have nothing to loose. Do you understand the point I was making or are you really this stupid? I don't have alot of time so I will only answer one area of your reply. You said Hebrew culture< I don't know about that I would have to check more in depth. As for was there hebrews, if you can say that when it refers to someone as a hebrew then yes. Here you go:
GEN 14:13, 39:14, 39:17, 41:12, EXD 1:15, 1:16, 1:19, 2:7, 2:11, 21:2, DEU 15:12, JER 34:9, 34:14, JON 1:9, LUK 23:28, JHN 5:2, 1917, 19:20, ACT 21:40, 22:2, 26:14, PHL 3:5, REV 9:11, 16:16
Is that enough or do these not count for you. It wouldn't surprise me if you did count these as good references, after all you don't believe in the Bible anyway. Peace Bri. -ZThis message has been edited by Zachariah, 05-23-2004 05:44 PM

Is there really a reason for the personal attack? Brian wrote a polite reply and asked you some questions. Calling him stupid is not the way to make friends, earn respect or witness for your god. It also isn't the way to remain on this forum.Please read the Forum Guidelines again.

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AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

Point well taken. I don't presume to know how well the Bible has been translated throughout the years. I only read it and get a better understanding of how I feel GOD wants me to live out my life. Everyone else can do as you like "freewill". I do personally believe that the differnce now compared to then with regards to stories or eyewitness accounts is this, one is peoples words and one is GODS words or story. The people of that time were too scared to get it wrong. I think they would get it correct most of the time. Maybe not everytime. I still think if errors were made that the main idea that is at hand for the specific topic written about will get out though. These are my opinions. No need to argue about them. -Z

I've read them but sometimes when your faith is questioned you get a little upset. I pull bunches on most occations, sorry not this time. And I don't understand where you and others get this idea that christians have to be sweet and nice all the time. We are after all human. Do we not also get to show emotions other than those presumed by you and others? I hope I get to. I just won't call him dumb anymore. You may want to keep your eyes open for some of the curse words that pop up, never seen an admin jump on someone for that yet. Odd. Maybe that's acceptable. I'll check the rules. Later friend. -Z

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Now I'm starting the OT to see all the ways it collaborates the NT.

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So back to the Book of John. Have you checked the OT references yet to see if they concur with each other?

I dunno, the Bible maybe?

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Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

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Luke 6:29 - To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt.

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You know, I could go on, but mostly there's the forum guidelines that you agreed to:

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Respect for others is the rule here. Argue the position, not the person. The Britannica says, "Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach."

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As far as I've been able to see, Brian is smarter than either one of us. That makes your statement "bearing false witness", too. Emphasis and invective are two different things, my friend.Look, if a little faith-questioning is all it takes to make you fly off the handle, you're not going to impress anyone with the strength of your faith. If you have to put up a smokescreen of insults to defend it, we're all going to come to the conclusion that your faith is all that strong in the first place.

no one is claiming history books to be inerrant. they do, however, claim to be the best current understanding of the subject, and are quite subject to revision. in almost every case, history books are written based upon source documents, ie: letters from people who were there, records, etc. the source documents for the bible are largely other mythologies, such as that of the believers of ba'al (leviathan for instance was borrowed from them), and the babylonians (creation story, noah). what about the gospel of thomas? wasn't that written by thomas, who stuck his finger into the risen christ's side? in that case, we should take it as more valid than luke, who even admits he wasn't there. just because a document has been attributed to someone does not mean they wrote it. in many cases, the actual date of the document strictly forbids that the person wrote it. how christian of you. don't agree? burn in hell!sorry to burst your bubble, but i am a christian.

purpledawn: i have a cat that looks almost exactly like that. does john even make specific ot references? i know the prophesy bits in matthew don't line up at all. the mroe i examine the ot and nt together, i see that they really don't match, and many fundamental assumptions (original sin, satan, etc) don't even seem to stem from judaism at all.

Shadoe is a beautiful cat.

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does john even make specific ot references?

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The OT references I found that John uses to infer that Jesus was fulfilling the OT are:John 1:23 refers to Isaiah 40:3
John 6:45 refers to Isaiah 54:13
John 7:42 refers to 2 Samuel 7:12 and Micah 5:2
John 12:15 refers to Zechariah 9:9
John 12:38 refers to Isaiah 53:1
John 12: 40 refers to Isaiah 6:10
John 19:37 refers to Zechariah 12:10There are several reference to Psalms in the book of John but I personally don't consider songs as something to be fulfilled.In the book "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding Judaism" by Rabbi Benjamin Blech he states that:

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In the Book of Psalms, we speak to God and to our own hearts. ...we find expression for all the sorrows, troubles, fears, doubts, hopes, pains, perplexities, and stormy stresses to which the souls of men are tossed.

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(Pr 15:1) A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.