What did I Misunderstand, Zachariah?

Thank you very much, I do have a lot of competition for this title, but I happily accept it until a more deserving person comes along. But I do appreciate your very ‘unchristianlike’ reply. But Zach, this is the stance that you want US to take, you are saying that we should believe in God just in case the biblical narratives about hell and eternal damnation are true. You want us to cover our backs, this presumes that God is dumb and doesn’t know your heart, don’t you think God would know if we were choosing to believe in Him for the reasons that you say we should? This smacks of double standards, you are pleading with us to have an open mind and consider the possibility that God does exist, yet you are not prepared to return the courtesy? Why do you assume that myself and others haven’t already taken this approach and concluded that God doesn’t exist? Just because you have arrived at a different conclusion doesn’t mean that you are correct and we are wrong. We both work from a position of faith, the difference is what we accept as being satisfactory evidence for our stances. But Zach this is essentially Pascal’s Wager, it has been rejected for decades as being severely flawed. You are asking us to believe ‘just in case’ there may be a God. Why should we go through our lives believing in embarrassing childish tales that have been falsified many times and contradict what everything else in our lives tell us? Oh yes I forgot, we should believe in them in the off chance that they may happen to be right. No thanks, it is a childish argument. I totally understand the point you are making, but you do not realise how flawed and childish the point is. Look at it this way, why don’t you follow Allah just in case the Qur’an is correct, I mean what have you got to lose? However, if you follow the Qur’an and there is nothing after death then so what? But if you follow it and it just happens to be true then you are in paradise. Do you see now how silly your proposal is?What if we do follow your advice and believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour because it might just happen to be true but it actually turns out that Islam is true, you have condemned us all to eternal damnation. Good grief, let me break it down into simpler terms for you.What evidence do you have that the ethnic group identified as Hebrews in the Bible actually did exist? Now to say that the Hebrews mentioned in the Bible existed because the Bible says they existed is circular reasoning. Do you have any external non-biblical evidence that an ethnic group identifiable as ‘Hebrew’ existed. I think I am capable of looking in a Bible for the mention of the word ‘Hebrew’. But the mention of Hebrews in the Bible doesn’t mean that there ever was any. I am not saying that there were never any Hebrews, I am asking what evidence you have, outside of the Bible, to support their existence. This doesn’t make sense, surely you mean it wouldn’t surprise you if I didn’t count these as good references?These are not good references Zach, these are only references to the mention of the word ‘Hebrew’ in the Bible. How can I not believe in the Bible, I have six of them on my bookshelf?If you meant to say that I do not believe anything in the Bible, then you are wrong again. I believe a great deal of what is in the Bible, I just don’t believe all of it. But since you are coming from a position of self-confessed ignorance, you really cannot comment on the contents of the Bible.Oh, before I go, I would very much like you to support this dogmatic statement: The bible is the oldest book in circulation You state this unequivocally, so you really must have researched this to be so sure about it. Would you care to share with me why you have arrived at this conclusion?Brian.

Brian ~Good reply, and kudos on being extremely polite when attacked. You know, it was jar, Truth Lover and yourself that "broke" me of my fear of the Bible. I am a Deist, and after years of being a fundie then atheist, I was troubled by the Bible, in that I did not want to become what I once was; a judemental, arrogant, uninformed and unhappy person.So again, thanks.

Hi, You are very welcome, and thank you for your kind words.Brian.

I have no idea if they have an ethnic group called hebrew. You seem to be asking questions with your own answer already in mind so why don't you enlighten me with your answer. For me if the bible refers to them as hebrews and they have a language known as hebrew what alse could it be. Please let me know Brian.

When you say something like: Claiming that everyone has Hebrew roots, what exactly have you researched to support this? But I am not making any claims about having Hebrew roots, nor am I informing others that they do. I am interested in how you come to so many apparently unambiguous conclusions. They could be a group that has nothing to do with the Bible.
They could be a group that do not exist outside of the Bible.
They could be a group whose ancestors have been 'hijacked' by the biblical authors.There are many things that they could be, but have the biblical Hebrews left any evidence of their existence outside of the Bible? Something like inscriptions, treaties, seals, architecture, anything that is distinctly 'Hebrew'?If the only reasons that you believe that Hebrews existed are the mention in the Bible and there is a Hebrew language then that is fair enough. There is no 'trap' here, you don't have to be so defensive.Brian.

from the first two those look a little out context. i was thinking more along the lines of fulfillment of specific prophesies by actions than little nods to old testament scripture in quotations attributed to jesus. i guess i misunderstood the point. and anyhow, i haven't read all of john in a while.maybe tomorrow when i'm feeling more awake i'll go and look and see how the greek of the nt matches the hebrew of the ot, and what the contexts of each are. but frankly, i'm too out of it to do that right now.my guess is that they don't quite fit how they should.and yes, it is a beautiful cat. nice name for it too.

Original Challenge from Zachariah:

quote:

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I propose to all of you who claim athiest views to take a challenge. You must be truthful and courageous though. I say that many of you can be converted to christianity and will be.

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My point to Zachariah was that the little nods to the OT did not impress me as something to be fulfilled by Jesus/Messiah.So with an open mind and reading only the book of John, I don't see any information that leads me to trust the writers presentation.Zachariah hasn't gotten back with me on his views of the references to the OT.

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

When I said we all have Hebraic roots here is what I mean to say. It is my belief (based on the Bible) that we all come from Adam and Eve. After the flood (if you don't believe in the flood fine, don't need to reply on the flood everyone) we would have all come from Noah and his family. The tower of Babal was the time according to the Bible when people were scattered throughout the earth and languages were mixed up. It is my belief that that is where all the different nationalities and languages come from, where we all come from. (originally, thus Hebraic roots)
Okay, Brian. From what I have gathered Hebrew term came from an ancestor of Abraham named Eber. The name means "other side" referring to where Abraham came from and his religion and the likes. So Hebrew would be kind of almost religious nationality more than where they physically came from. That's all I can give you. And I do appologize for calling you dumb. That wasn't very kind. I was having a not so great day (working when I wasn't supposed to etc..) I am turning over a new leaf thanks to all of you here. I decided I will become more easy going. Not take everything sooo serious. I'm just going to enjoy myself. Time is too short to worry about every little thing. Peace. -ZThis message has been edited by Zachariah, 05-27-2004 11:44 PM

Zach, you apologize to Brian, come on. I am insulted. I will never speak to you again. No, I will always speak to you again, that is your punishment. Brian, screw you, I'm zach's buddy now.It does not matter, Zach. You should stick up for your beliefs. Just because somebody disagrees with you, shouldn't shake your faith. You have integrity, you have strength of character. Stick up for those beliefs. Screw the infidels. Time is too short. Get right with the lord, you will be judged by the company that you keep.In case anybody takes me serious, get a life.

I'm sticking up for my beliefs. I just said I was sorry for calling him dumb. Cool? -Z

Sorry, Zach. I meant none of the above, I just had a few too many.

Does this meen your not my buddy? "sob", "sniff", "sniff". LOL. -Z

Hi Zach, It is no problem Zach we all have bad days now and then.Thanks for the Hebrew explanation.Any luck with supporting 'the Bible is the oldest book in ciruclation' claim, do you wish to retract that, or is this also a belief?Brian.

Yeah, now that I reread what I wrote it doesn't sound all that thought out does it. I guess I was trying to say that the Bible is the 1st book and the Bible is still in circulation today. Not the original Bible mind you, just copies of it. Whereas the Etruscan book in Bulgaria would be the oldest book in existence today.

Zachariah, do you have a time (which century BC?) that you believe the oldest book in the OT is written?Do you see the Code of Hamurabi (sometimes called Law of...), for example, as fitting as a book (since you say parts of the bible are books)?