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Author
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Topic: Gods Bible
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Re: Promises of Jesus
Who was the author that you are quoting? Jesus was speaking to the twelve, but the promise is for all. It was the twelves job to go out and spread the good news that he was teaching them. Jesus said:
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [ Or into; see Acts 8:16; 19:5; Romans 6:3; 1 Cor. 1:13; 10:2 and Gal. 3:27.] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
John the baptist, who was fille with the Holy Spirit from birth:
Matthew 3:11
I baptize you with [ Or in] water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Evidence that the Holy Spirit works in all of us:
Mark 13:11
Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
The general public:
Acts 4:31
After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly
There too many references to the Holy Spirit to list them all here, but the power or gifts of the Holy Spirit are not limited to the 12. Galations 5:
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and selfcontrol. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
These are the gifts of the spirit for all to have: 1 Corithians 12
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
What would be better, is if God showed you his Holy Spirit personally. God, I am asking for you to touch purpledawn's heart for a moment with your Holy Spirit. Let her feel the joy and love of you. Let her feel it the moment she reads this prayer, so that she would know its from you. I pray in the name of Jesus. *edit* to fix a bracket in a quote. This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 02-10-2005 07:25 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by purpledawn, posted 02-09-2005 9:15 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 47 of 56 (184378)
02-10-2005 9:44 AM
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Reply to: Message 46 by riVeRraT
02-10-2005 7:23 AM
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Re: Promises of Jesus
Are you actually reading what I write or are you just panicing because I disagree with a Christian tradition?
quote:
Who was the author that you are quoting?
The author of the Book of John. Unfortunately they don't really know the identity of the author. Read chapter 14 and show me the words in chapter 14 that show that the promise made in chapter 14 was made to all people. Your verses are actually supporting my point.
quote:
There too many references to the Holy Spirit to list them all here, but the power or gifts of the Holy Spirit are not limited to the 12.
The Holy Spirit has been present throughout the writings of the Bible. It is not any less available now than it was at the time Genesis was composed. Within these writings we see different aspects of the Holy Spirit presented. I did not claim that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were limited to the 12. Read what I wrote in Message 45.
The promise Jesus made to the twelve was for the Spirit of Truth, a helper, counselor. He made a specific promise to the twelve. You have shown the many facets of the Holy Spirit: Galations 5:22-23 lists the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and selfcontrol. 1 Corinthians 12:7-10 lists the gifts of the Spirit: the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. Verse 11 sums up my point:
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. When one asks for and receives the Holy Spirit, one does not receive ALL the gifts! Jesus made a specific promise (John 14:16-17) of a specific aspect of the Holy Spirit to the 12. He did not promise that specific gift to all people. P.S. I've been a Christian for over 40 years. I'm quite familiar with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This message has been edited by purpledawn, 02-10-2005 09:52 AM
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by riVeRraT, posted 02-10-2005 7:23 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 48 by jar, posted 02-10-2005 1:20 PM | | purpledawn has not replied | | | Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 02-10-2005 4:19 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Promises of Jesus
Why is it so hard for some Christians to realize that many of us have actually read the WHOLE Bible and often far more than once? RiverRat has said repeatedly that he has not even read the whole Bible. I get the feeling that instead of actually examining the evidence he relies on the quote mining of others.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by purpledawn, posted 02-10-2005 9:44 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Re: Promises of Jesus
The whole speech is as follows:
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.
That is the complete promise. At the end of the promise he points to all of us who believe in him. The Holy Spirit is a consuler for all. He is my consuler in life. In 19 he says that the world will not see me, but you will. Verse 21 he explains how to see him. The gift is for all who see him. The verse explains that quite clearly.
Are you actually reading what I write or are you just panicing because I disagree with a Christian tradition?
I never panic, I just seek the truth.
The Holy Spirit has been present throughout the writings of the Bible. It is not any less available now than it was at the time Genesis was composed. Within these writings we see different aspects of the Holy Spirit presented.
Agreed.
When one asks for and receives the Holy Spirit, one does not receive ALL the gifts!
I never said they did. I agree with you. I have not recieved all the gifts of the spirit, but I have recieved the fruit.
P.S. I've been a Christian for over 40 years.
I'm quite familiar with the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Cool, but lets clear up this thing about the promise being only for the 12.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by purpledawn, posted 02-10-2005 9:44 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 50 of 56 (184442)
02-10-2005 5:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by riVeRraT
02-10-2005 4:19 PM
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Re: Promises of Jesus
quote:
Cool, but lets clear up this thing about the promise being only for the 12.
1. The whole discussion takes place at the last supper with the twelve disciples. yes or no? 2. The word "you" in this speech is refering to the group Jesus was addressing. 3. Please be more specific as to what words or sentence structure makes this speech applicable to all people or Christians? 4. Verse 21 and 23 are universal in nature.
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father,... If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching.... Jesus is talking with the disciples and that specific promise is to the disciples. That doesn't mean that God wouldn't have the Holy Spirit guide you when necessary.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 02-10-2005 4:19 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 51 by riVeRraT, posted 02-10-2005 10:53 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Re: Promises of Jesus
Jesus is talking with the disciples and that specific promise is to the disciples
Just as your asking me to specify which part of the promise indicates that it is for everyone, and I have, you have not shown which part of the promise is for the disciples only. There is nothing in there that says, and this spirit is for you only, to be used in that way only by you 12. But, if we read further, Judas goes on to say:
22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world? 23Jesus replied, If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
So Judas thought like you, and said why us only. Then Jesus clears it up and says, no it is for anyone who loves me. I think thats pretty clear.
That doesn't mean that God wouldn't have the Holy Spirit guide you when necessary
Thanks, or when I ask for help.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by purpledawn, posted 02-10-2005 5:06 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 52 of 56 (184517)
02-11-2005 6:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 51 by riVeRraT
02-10-2005 10:53 PM
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Re: Promises of Jesus
I just realized the promise is actually to the 11, Judas Iscariot has already left the table. Judas misunderstood this universal statement and assumed that Jesus still meant only them as you stated.
" Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." Then Judas said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?" Then Jesus clarified that statement and showed Judas that he wouldn't just reveal himself just to them, but to those who "love" him according to the definition given.
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him... Jesus didn't change the promise, but assured them that the gift that God will send will teach them (the 11) and remind them (the 11) of all Jesus had said to them (the 11).
All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you....Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. The Spirit of Truth is promised to the Eleven. The universal promise by Jesus is that he would reveal himself to those who "love him" per the definition given in verse 21 and that God would love those who "love" Jesus. The Spirit promised to the 11 had a specific function: to teach them all things and remind them of everything Jesus had said to them. All people were not promised or guaranteed this specific spirit.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by riVeRraT, posted 02-10-2005 10:53 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by riVeRraT, posted 02-11-2005 7:37 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Re: Promises of Jesus
I must say, that I really enjoy talking with you. I won't rag on you about the mistake of 11, or 12. Let's put the bible down for a second. Is it not quite possible that Jesus meant it for everyone(everyone who believes)? Even by your own description, the Holy Spirit, can fill us with anyone of the 9, or all of them. I muat tell you, the the Holy Spirit is a guide in my life. I try not to do anything without first confirmimg with him. Should I do something that doesn't go well with him, I get convicted by him, and ask for forgiveness. The Holy Spirit always answers me when I ask, and leads me through life. The Holy Spirit talks to me when I do things that please him, sometimes when I least expect it. This is why I believe Jesus was speaking to them, but meant it for all. It doesn't matter how you translate it, I experience it, that is why, I believe. I mean I have no problem with you believing the way you do, because the way you describe the gifts, and by the way you talk, I would like to think that you have the gift of knowledge, and wisdom, and that is from the Holy Spirit, and it guides you through life, that to me is good enough.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by purpledawn, posted 02-11-2005 6:38 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 54 of 56 (184532)
02-11-2005 8:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 53 by riVeRraT
02-11-2005 7:37 AM
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Re: Promises of Jesus
Thank you, I also enjoy conversing with you. quote:
Is it not quite possible that Jesus meant it for everyone(everyone who believes)? Even by your own description, the Holy Spirit, can fill us with anyone of the 9, or all of them.
I'm baffled that you don't see the difference in a gift that someone will receive and a gift one could receive. This promise isn't even based on belief. These men were about to lose their leader. Jesus was promising them help after he was gone, help that would remind them of what he had taught them while he was with them. If you remember when you first did a job on your own, you might understand the fear they probably felt. Do they know enough, will they remember all they were taught, etc. His promise essentially was that they would.
Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. This message has been edited by purpledawn, 02-11-2005 08:53 AM
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by riVeRraT, posted 02-11-2005 7:37 AM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 55 by riVeRraT, posted 02-12-2005 6:30 PM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: 05-09-2004
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Re: Promises of Jesus
I agree with that, but I feel the Holy Spirit also reminds me of how God wants us to be, that's why he's my guide. Gifts in life that people have, are from God, and they are irrevokable. It's up to us if we should use them to serve God or not. The gifts of the Holy Spirit come with knowing the Holy Spirit.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 02-11-2005 8:48 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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moolmogo
Inactive Member
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Message 56 of 56 (186623)
02-18-2005 6:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Antihero
02-04-2005 3:09 PM
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there was a skateboard company named antihero too awhile back.
If the ways of the bible where true, then at least 50% of earths population would go to hell and suffer forever. How can you live in happiness forever knowing some
Of your friends and family are burning. How can you design a believe system based on fear.
Now I might be wrong and maybe I don’t understand , but I am still reading though sites
Like this because I fear the truth.
if mankind isn't immortal like in the thread http:// EvC Forum: According to the Bible, mankind doesn't have an immortal soul. --> EvC Forum: According to the Bible, mankind doesn't have an immortal soul. then how can they suffer infinity? i think i heard that the going to hell and suffering as an immortal was a doctrine that came in during the some period in time. i think they said medeival or dark ages. is the popular view of hell today really Biblical? there's some material (text/audio/video) about the hell stuff in "Is The Devil In Charge Of Hell?" @
Bible Study Guides in English | Amazing Facts
This message has been edited by moolmogo, 02-18-2005 18:34 AM This message has been edited by moolmogo, 02-18-2005 18:35 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Antihero, posted 02-04-2005 3:09 PM | | Antihero has not replied |
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