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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Supernatural
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 107 (650180)
01-28-2012 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by crashfrog
01-28-2012 4:07 PM


Re: Israel, Fore & Aft
crashfrog writes:

Hardly a "wasteland." Actually, it had always been a fertile and productive land over those 19 centuries of the Jews not having stolen it yet.

Crashfrog, your map is a straw-man, showing nothing as evidence that the land, by and large has been a wilderness nomadic herdsman's and fisherman's wasteland relative to what it was before the dispersion and after the return of the Jews as owners and occupants.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2012 4:07 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2012 4:37 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 62 of 107 (650182)
01-28-2012 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Buzsaw
01-28-2012 4:24 PM


Re: Israel, Fore & Aft
A quick experiment:

quote:
Crashfrog, your map is a straw-man, showing nothing as evidence that the land, by and large has been a wilderness nomadic herdsman's and fisherman's wasteland relative to what it was before the dispersion and after the return of the Jews as owners and occupants.

Hrm, nope, making some of the text orange doesn't seem to have any effect on its veracity. It's equally false in all colors.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2012 4:24 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2012 6:05 PM crashfrog has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 107 (650195)
01-28-2012 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by crashfrog
01-28-2012 4:37 PM


Re: Israel, Fore & Aft
crashfrog writes:

Hrm, nope, making some of the text orange doesn't seem to have any effect on its veracity. It's equally false in all colors.

Crashfrog, please say some substantive thing for me to respond to. Yours is a classic troll message, slowing the progress of the thread.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2012 4:37 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Tangle, posted 01-28-2012 6:10 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 65 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2012 6:17 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6616
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 64 of 107 (650196)
01-28-2012 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Buzsaw
01-28-2012 6:05 PM


Re: Israel, Fore & Aft
Yours is a classic troll message, slowing the progress of the thread.

haha, isn't 8 or 9 years fast enough for you Buz?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2012 6:05 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2012 6:22 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 65 of 107 (650203)
01-28-2012 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Buzsaw
01-28-2012 6:05 PM


Re: Israel, Fore & Aft
Crashfrog, please say some substantive thing for me to respond to.

I did, in Message 59 . That message is currently awaiting substantive reply from you.

Any time you feel like putting down your crayons and getting to it, that'd be fine.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2012 6:05 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 107 (650206)
01-28-2012 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Tangle
01-28-2012 6:10 PM


Re: Israel, Fore & Aft
haha, isn't 8 or 9 years fast enough for you Buz?

quote:
Yours is a classic troll message, slowing the progress of the thread.

Make that: Yours is a classic troll message slowing the progress of the archived thread which has been bumped forward.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Tangle, posted 01-28-2012 6:10 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Warthog
Member (Idle past 2014 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


(4)
Message 67 of 107 (650223)
01-29-2012 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Buzsaw
01-28-2012 4:00 PM


Re: Debating Skeptics
quote:
Any objectively honest person cannot deny many fulfilled corroborative, observable fulfilled prophecies cited by me as evidence supportive to the existence of a higher intelligence than we experience on our itty bitty planet in the unsearchably (self explanitory Buzism adjective) immense and unsearchably complex Universe

I have to ask...

What observable fulfilled prophecies cited by you as evidence? You have given one broad example without even a biblical quote. This isn't 'citing', this is insisting.

Prove it.

In a thread about evidence for the supernatural, I have seen nothing more than 'I've got this feeling' examples.

I can accept the feeling that these are special or supernatural but I also see that people attribute the reason to their personal beliefs. I doubt a buddhist or muslim would come to the same conclusion as a christian any more than a skeptical atheist.

People naturally see coincidences and selectively memorize them. I don't know why but I know they do (Marketing is evil ). Suddenly seeing more examples of a car you have just bought driving around is a common example of this process.

I believe nator nailed more than eight years ago with...

quote:
What does a non-coincidence look like?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2012 4:00 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2012 9:10 AM Warthog has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 107 (650236)
01-29-2012 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Warthog
01-29-2012 5:51 AM


Re: Debating Skeptics
Warthog writes:

I have to ask...

What observable fulfilled prophecies cited by you as evidence? You have given one broad example without even a biblical quote. This isn't 'citing', this is insisting.

Prove it.

In a thread about evidence for the supernatural, I have seen nothing more than 'I've got this feeling' examples.

I can accept the feeling that these are special or supernatural but I also see that people attribute the reason to their personal beliefs. I doubt a buddhist or muslim would come to the same conclusion as a christian any more than a skeptical atheist.

People naturally see coincidences and selectively memorize them. I don't know why but I know they do (Marketing is evil ). Suddenly seeing more examples of a car you have just bought driving around is a common example of this process.

I believe nator nailed more than eight years ago with...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does a non-coincidence look like?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Warthog. A hearty welcome to EvC town from Buzsaw. We hope you'll become a residing active member.

Thanks for asking. I know a lot of them have been cited in the Buzsaw profile archives. You can search them out by clicking on my user-name and check out the thread titles which I've participated in over the past nine years.

I see one very interesting and enlightening one pertaining to Israel, etc. It's especially interesting in that it is my opening post to what was to be a Great Debate with a very respected active EvC member who was either atheistic or agnostic. His user-name was Meldinoor. We all liked him, creationists and evolutionists alike. No matter who he debated he was a real gentleman.

I made a claim in a thread similar to what I made here, that the fulfilled prophecies were evidence of the supernatural. Well, Meldinoor, suggested that I do a Great Debate with someone to debate whether this was true. So I challenged Meldinoor to a Great Debate on the topic. Meldinoor agreed.

I posted a rather lengthy OP, citing throughout the ancient Old Testament, Jesus of the New Testament, etc relative to a number of the prophecies, coming to mind, that the Jews would be globally dispersed and then, in the latter days, be regathered back to their ancient land of Israel and be restored as a nation etc.

Well, I've since been puzzled and disappointed that our friend, Meldinoor suddenly just became an inactive member, never to be heard of again, so for.

Now here's what's interesting. Because of your request for evidence of fulfilled prophecies, I went back in the profiles and came upon this proposed debate. I see a nice little red cheer dot on my OP message which cited all of the scriptures of the different ancient prophets etc. Guess who gave the cheer? It was none other than Meldinoor.

The cheer/jeers option was not installed on our EvC website back then, so evidently, Meldinoor logged in at some time fairly recently, cheered my message. Then he must have logged out again.

Perhaps Meldinoor has posted recently and I have missed it. If that be the case, hopefully another member will cite where he has.

That's it for now, Warthog. I'll go back in my profile and find some other prophecies which will corroborate what I've cited so far.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Warthog, posted 01-29-2012 5:51 AM Warthog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by PaulK, posted 01-29-2012 9:44 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 71 by Trixie, posted 01-29-2012 9:46 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 72 by crashfrog, posted 01-29-2012 10:38 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 74 by Warthog, posted 01-29-2012 5:05 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 69 of 107 (650238)
01-29-2012 9:22 AM


Re: Meldinoor Great Debate
Hi again, Warthog. I forgot to cite the message number of the above mentioned proposed Great Debate with Meldinoor. It's Message 1

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by crashfrog, posted 01-29-2012 10:39 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14716
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 70 of 107 (650243)
01-29-2012 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Buzsaw
01-29-2012 9:10 AM


Re: Debating Skeptics
Meldinoor was a Christian who became an agnostic during his time at EvC Message 1 I think that the "cheer" is just a conversion of a rating given under the previous system, not a sign that Meldinoor has been around lately.

Personally I'd like to see more on your "ideological differences" and why you think that it is the skeptics who are being unreasonable.

For instance you have made it clear that you feel that any interpretation of a prophecy that results in the prophecy being considered a failure, is automatically wrong. I suppose that it qualifies as an ideological difference but it's hardly the skeptics being unreasonable there. If the best interpretation of the prophecy - by other, neutral, measures - indicates that it failed then the skeptic position is clearly reasonable, and they would be unreasonable to agree with you !


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2012 9:10 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2012 11:23 PM PaulK has responded

    
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1752 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


(2)
Message 71 of 107 (650244)
01-29-2012 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Buzsaw
01-29-2012 9:10 AM


Re: Debating Skeptics
Buz, the thread title is "Evidence for the supernatural". When you resurrected this long-dead thread it was reasonable to assume you were either going to request evidence or supply evidence. So far all we've got is a vague claim about a fulfilled prophesy, a prophesy you don't even provide a proper source for.

On top of that, you've just referred someone to your previous threads to find what you consider evidence. THIS is the thread you should be producing your evidence in. I'm not prepared to pull up your entire list of posts and wade through them all to find what you claim is evidence, so I'll rely on my memory.

Most of your claims rely on a twisting of the bible to suit a later event, or a twisting of a later event to suit a biblical prophesy. Unless everyone agrees what a prophesy says and everyone can see the fulfillment of it, regardless of their "side", it cannot be considered hard evidence. That's the whole point of evidence. No-one is going to accept your evidence in this thread since even you claim your evidence is scattered around in posts over the last few years.

So produce your evidence for the supernatural in a thread called evidence for the supernatural which you have chosen to drag back through the years. Otherwise, you should have left it well alone if you have nothing to say.

Finally, the sour grapes over a Great Debate topic doesn't cut it. For someone who hits the "Jeers" button regardless of post quality, but based on which side of the debate someone is on, your whinge is ironic. All those times you jeered people for purely partisan reasons, thinking you were doing it anonymously, have been noticed even by me and I'm just back.

I'm jeering your post to Warthog because all your post does is refer a new member to your screeds and screeds of previous posts, without even providing links to ones you feel may answer his questions. You've made over 8,900 posts since you joined. Do you expect him to wade through all of that, much of which has nothing to do wth fulfilled prophesy or evidence for the supernatural? If ever a post arrogantly hand-waved away a genuine question, this is it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2012 9:10 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2012 11:04 PM Trixie has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


(6)
Message 72 of 107 (650251)
01-29-2012 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Buzsaw
01-29-2012 9:10 AM


Re: Debating Skeptics
Buz, you asked me a few days ago:

quote:
Give me an example of my alleged propensity to post a bunch of unspecified other posts.

Message 68 is exactly what I'm talking about. Wart asked you for the evidence; you just handwaved him to "the Buzsaw archives", as though that's a thing. The problem with trolling through the "Buzsaw archives" looking for evidence is that the "Buzsaw archives" consist almost entirely of two things:

1) your complaints about "unfair treatment" at the hands of people who ask you for evidence, and
2) responses to requests for evidence telling people to "look through the Buzsaw archives"!

When I was talking in that other thread about a more effective way to help you realize your goal of

quote:
To spark up some interest, move the thread topic forward and to enlighten

it's exactly this kind of message that I was referring to. Nothing in what you've just said to Warthog actually accomplishes your goals. I know you feel like you have this vast archive of evidence built up over a decade of posting at EvC. The problem is, even if that's true simply handwaving at the "Buzsaw archives" doesn't bring any of it forward. With almost 10,000 posts by you, that's a lot of dross to sift through to get at your gems.

Here's my suggestion - nobody knows better than you what the best examples of your evidence are. Why don't you take a trip through the Buzsaw Archives and pull out some direct links to those posts, and then keep them in a bookmark or something so that when a new participant shows up asking for your evidence, they can be directed to it instead of being asked to sift through a decade of your posts?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2012 9:10 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2012 10:48 PM crashfrog has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 73 of 107 (650252)
01-29-2012 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Buzsaw
01-29-2012 9:22 AM


Re: Meldinoor Great Debate
Cheered for actually specifying a post referred to.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2012 9:22 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Warthog
Member (Idle past 2014 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


(1)
Message 74 of 107 (650277)
01-29-2012 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Buzsaw
01-29-2012 9:10 AM


Re: Debating Skeptics
Thanks for the link but I didn't see any evidence there. It appears to me that you are using the bible to prove the bible.

I have looked for outside sources which corroborate your historical references in the thread and haven't found any. If you have more information than I do, could you post links?

What I have found is that archaeology does not support most biblical history in detail. I am not very well versed in the history of the region and was hoping for more than this. As you are confidently stating that this is historical fact, I assumed that you would have evidence from archaeology to back it up.

It appears to me that The Illiad can be seen as just as accurate according to presented evidence.

Of course, this is not the subject of the OP, which is evidence of the supernatural. I have still seen none...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2012 9:10 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Buzsaw, posted 01-29-2012 10:31 PM Warthog has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 107 (650303)
01-29-2012 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Warthog
01-29-2012 5:05 PM


Re: Debating Skeptics (Sometime A Venture In Futility
Warthog writes:

Thanks for the link but I didn't see any evidence there. It appears to me that you are using the bible to prove the bible.


'
(sigh)Here's how you figure out the link evidence. You read all of the prophetic references pertaining to the ancient dispersion and the predicted latter day restoration of the Israeli Jews which are cited in the link. You check out the history of the tiny land of Israel from the time of Christ until now on Google. You discover that for about 19 long centuries the land was essentially occupied by Gentiles while the Jews were dispersed. Then you look up recent history and find that the long time relatively desolate land has been irrigated, blooming and that Israel is the only nation in that region of the world that actually exports produce. You find that there's been numerous wars as all of the large Islamic nations have tried to knock out Israel, etc, etc.

Now, Warthog, Go figure. You don't think there's anything unusual about that tiny land's people being dispersed among many nations and now after all of this time there they are, strong, able to defend themselves against all odds etc just as predicted by many sources thousands of years ago? Can you name any other people in history that something similar has happened? Do you think that if the Navajo Indians were dispersed globally 19 centuries ago that they would remain identifiable Navajos to return to their reservation in the Southwest?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Warthog, posted 01-29-2012 5:05 PM Warthog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Coyote, posted 01-29-2012 10:52 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply
 Message 85 by Warthog, posted 01-30-2012 8:27 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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