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Author Topic:   Why must we believe *before* we die?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 302 (244119)
09-16-2005 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
09-16-2005 9:40 AM


So why does God insist on people becoming believers during their lifetime?
She doesn't. It couldn't care less about whether or not you believe.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Parasomnium, posted 09-16-2005 9:40 AM Parasomnium has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 302 (247429)
09-29-2005 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Omnivorous
09-29-2005 7:57 PM


I don't blame you.
I must admit if you read the responses from the Christians in this thread that the God most of them claim to worship is most disgusting.
The greatest barrier that GOD faces is Biblical Literalists.
Fortunately there is no resemblance between what they portray and either christianity or GOD. GOD doesn't care whether you believe or not. GOD will know YOU by what you do, not what you say.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Omnivorous, posted 09-29-2005 7:57 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Omnivorous, posted 09-29-2005 9:17 PM jar has not replied
 Message 62 by Funkaloyd, posted 09-30-2005 1:48 AM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 302 (247905)
10-01-2005 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by crashfrog
10-01-2005 10:18 AM


Re: Ah, Hell's Unconquerable Will
Yup. And he got his material not from the Bible but from books like First Adam & Eve and the Book of Enoch. His interpretations have colored Christianity regardless of the Canon.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2005 10:18 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Omnivorous, posted 10-01-2005 9:37 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 302 (248455)
10-03-2005 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by iano
10-03-2005 4:45 AM


How to get to heaven
Name even one law, the carrying out of which will get you to heaven.
You don't even have to carry it out, only TRY to carry it out.
"love GOD and love your neighbor as yourself"
GOD doesn't expect you to suceed, and only asked that you try.
It really is as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 4:45 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 9:33 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 149 of 302 (248468)
10-03-2005 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by iano
10-03-2005 9:33 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Everywhere in the Bible. It is found from John through Paul. It's particularly obvious in Matthew.
Salvation is freely given to everyone, Christian and non-Christian alike. All that is asked to that you try to do what is right. This is the message from the beginning verses of Genesis right on through the Bible. It was the very reason for the Life and Death of jesus. It is the Gospel.
Read John 3 or Matthew 25 or Paul's writings. They all say the same thing. Salvation is given to all mankind. All that GOD asks in return is that man try to do right instead of wrong. No one is expected to succeed. Fight the Good Fight. It doesn't say win, it doesn't say fight the fight, it says Fight the Good Fight.
This is one reason that it is far more likely that an Atheist will get to heaven than a Christian. 99.999999999% of Christians simply don't get it. That's the message of Matthew 25.
It really is that simple. Your heart will be known by your actions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 9:33 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 10:08 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 151 of 302 (248479)
10-03-2005 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by iano
10-03-2005 10:08 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
So you want to play the futile game of Quote-mine?
Okay, I have some time to waste right now.
Let's start with Matthew 25:31-46
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Please point out where Jesus refers to belief in the quoted scripture.
edited to change strat to start.
This message has been edited by jar, 10-03-2005 09:16 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 10:08 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 10:52 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 154 of 302 (248499)
10-03-2005 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by iano
10-03-2005 10:52 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
Sorry but that's not what it says. Please show where some righteous folk were preselected in the Matthew passage.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 10:52 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 11:37 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 158 of 302 (248516)
10-03-2005 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by iano
10-03-2005 11:37 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
and what is the criteria for the separation?
This message has been edited by jar, 10-03-2005 11:37 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 11:37 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 12:52 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 166 of 302 (248537)
10-03-2005 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by iano
10-03-2005 12:52 PM


Re: How to get to heaven
That's not what Jesus said.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 12:52 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:19 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 169 of 302 (248543)
10-03-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by iano
10-03-2005 1:19 PM


Re: How to get to heaven
We were discussing Matthew 25. I asked what the criteria for division was as outlined in Matthew 25.
Still awaiting your answer.
This message has been edited by jar, 10-03-2005 12:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:19 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:35 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 172 of 302 (248550)
10-03-2005 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by iano
10-03-2005 1:35 PM


Re: How to get to heaven
except what Jesus says of course. LOL
I repost it so you can read it again.
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 1:35 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 2:10 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 183 of 302 (248610)
10-03-2005 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by iano
10-03-2005 2:10 PM


Re: How to get to heaven
I'm sorry but it seems you are simply incapable of reading.
Now, are they righteous because they did these things or did they do these things on account of, or a consequence of being righteous?
Please show me in Matthew 25 where Jesus says they did those things because they were righteous?
You can't. It is not in there.
Jesus says in very plain words that it is those that did those things who are saved. Who did those things.
The others, the goats, like you and Faith, are surprised. They react in shock. The Goats are Christians, they call him Lord.
It's Christians that will be damned for the most part, not Atheists and Agnostics. They'll do just fine. Hell will be filled with Christians.
Look at it in everyday terms. It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a Christian to achieve salvation. How does GOD know your heart, by the pompous piety preached or by how one behaves?
This message has been edited by jar, 10-03-2005 03:35 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by iano, posted 10-03-2005 2:10 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 5:55 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 195 of 302 (248815)
10-04-2005 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by iano
10-04-2005 5:55 AM


Re: How to get to heaven
I've said already that this passage doesn't show the mechanism of salvation.
But it does, and does so in very clear and unambiguous terms. Maybe you missed it.
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Pretty clear. Pretty simple.
Your comment about passports is just silly. It has absolutely nothing to do with the passage we're discussing. Maybe you missed it.
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
All Nations Not the Irish, not the Righteous, All Nations.
Anybody who speaks with the seemingly exclusive language of a Christian - expecially when they say they are on the 'inside' is going to sound arrogant and conceited and holier-than-thou.
The problem is that most people understand the message of Jesus and Christianity. Atheist understand the message. Buddhists understand the message. Agnostics understand the message. Rastafarians understand the message. The message is really simple.
Try to do right.
Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
It's only many Christians that don't get it.
It's not Believe in the Bible.
It's not Profess His Name.
The Gift was given. Freely given. Given to all mankind.
Your actions speak louder than your words.
The Atheist who helps someone reach a can on the top shelf or unload a shopping cart Loves GOD.
The Agnostic that stoops to talk to the child from the child's eye level Loves GOD.
The Buddhist that smiles as he passes you on the street and holds the door open for you Loves GOD.
The Rastafarian that speaks out against poverty Loves GOD.
The Christian that oppresses gays does not.
It really is as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 5:55 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 12:04 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 198 of 302 (248840)
10-04-2005 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by iano
10-04-2005 12:04 PM


Re: How to get to heaven
It is mentioned. Infact it's the central tenet of Salvation. GOD forgives everyone. GOD knows we cannot be perfect, he knows we cannot succeed. But we must try.
Paul says "Fight the Good fight", "Run the race". He does not say "Win the fight", "Win the race", but to just try.
That's all.
Try.
Salavation is given, given to all mankind. Free. Gratas.
It doesn't matter what you believe, GOD will judge you on your behavior.
Message from Genesis...
You know Right from wrong.
Message from the NT...
You are forgiven.
Message from Jesus and Paul...
Try to do what's right.
It really is that simple.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 12:04 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 12:53 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 202 of 302 (248862)
10-04-2005 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by iano
10-04-2005 12:53 PM


Re: How to get to heaven
I have never said that you can earn salvation. Salvation is given, freely, to everyone, Christian, Buddhist, Rastafarian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostic, Satanist, Pagan.
It's given, done, gratus.
To ALL mankind.
Not just to believers.
To ALL mankind.
But you can blow it. Your behavior can screw up your chances. And Christians are far more likely to screw it up than non-Christians.
If you read Matthew 25 it is obvious that the sheep were not among the followers, while the goats were.
If you like I'll be glad to lead you through the passages.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by iano, posted 10-04-2005 12:53 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by iano, posted 10-05-2005 4:39 AM jar has replied

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