Why must we believe *before* we die?

I, for one, think iano put it quite beautifully there. This is what Christianity (and most religions) are all about: *Desperation*. The vast majority of born again Christians I know, converted during a serious personal crisis: serious illness, bereavement, bankruptcy, etc. When they couldn't rely on themselves or others any longer they turned to the last desperate recourse, God.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

what, you mean like 'Dungeons and Dragons' or something ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

... what ?! what bible are you reading ?So we can ignore Jesus's rhetoric that it's what you do that saves you? (we can also ignore all of James)So you're saying that if you ignore the commandments, rape, steal and pillage it has no impact to your future according to Christianity, right? what are you on about?! that's *exactly* what Christianity is saying:- repent, accept Jesus and you'll get to heaven (Paul's version)
- do good, love God and your neighbour and you'll get to heaven (Jesus's version)where do you see the difference?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Yes, John echoes Paul's theology, but it was written much later so it's still Paul's theology.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

sure it's easy, here's not one but six :(Mat 19:18) Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,(Mat 19:19) Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.Jesus said: "...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments"

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

quote:

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"Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother ... Sell everything you have and give to the poor"

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sorry Funkaloyd, I just realised you got there before me.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I don't think there's anything here to indicate that both a law breaker and a law upholder get to heaven. This verse is about how people will be regarded when the kigdom of heaven comes. Someone who annulls the law by their interpretation and teaches others to do (like the pharisees) will be regarded as the lowest (presumably not saved) while people who uphold the law will be regarded as the highest (presumably saved). Like many other Jesus verses, Mat 5:19 shows that Jesus taught that it's what you do (or try to, as Jar says) that makes the difference.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

How ?? Jesus tells the young man that the commandments would be enough to save him but "if he wants to be perfect" he can give away his possessions. This shows that by keeping the commandments he's already good enough to be saved. I actually think Luke has this as another requirement, not optional like Matthew. Jesus just makes the point that it's much harder for rich people to find salvation, as he says a few verses later.How does this show that noone can keep all the law ?? that's what Jesus said too! (Matt 16:27, Mark 12:32-34, et al.) Jesus repeatedly and clearly points out that we'll be judged on our behaviour. He also implies that people who do good will be saved (the Good Samaritan doesn't even know Jesus, let alone believe in him). Paul tends to disagree. Whom do I believe ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

that's all very nice but, like Jar said, it's not what Jesus taught.You've only quoted Paul and his disciples (the authors of John and Acts)...oh and James, totally out of context.You fail to mention what the people who were closer to Jesus's time, i.e. the authors of the synoptics, wrote about him. The synoptics' message is clear: you're judged on what you do!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I can fling whole passages from Mark, Matt & Luke at you, in which Jesus says or suggests that we are judged on our behaviour, if it makes you feel any better. so who do I believe, James (works) or Paul(grace) ? or Jesus ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I'm making no assumptions either way, just looking at the text and its context. why the dichotomy? why do you exclude the possibility that some of it might be true, or based on true events, and some of it might be simply mythology and fiction propagated by people with ulterior motives ?I have no way of discerning which is which beyond reasonable doubt, but I can make educated guesses based on the historical and cultural context of the books and passages.For example, you want me to believe that the Gospel of John was written by John, the disciple of Jesus. You'd have me believe that an octagenerian, uneducated Jew (according to the Gospel) wrote a semi-mystical portrait of Jesus full of Hellenistic influences that differs radically in the portrayal of Jesus from the much earlier accounts presented in the Synoptics. I don't buy that.It's possible, but not likely. I don't but it's irrelevant. I'm pointing out that the words of Jesus from some accounts contradict teachings from other accounts. You're the one who's trying to reconcile contradictory teachings, so maybe you could tell me why *you* think the bible is inerrant. If the bible is inerrant then that means that God is inconsistent and self-contradicting.Or just doesn't want to communicate with us in a clear, unambiguous manner.You figure out which. Paul doesn't claim he physically met Jesus:(II Corinthians 12:2-4 )
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven -- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise -- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows -- and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.His companions in the Acts accounts (Acts 9:7, 22:9) certainly didn't see any other persons around.So all indications are that Paul had a vision. (he was also possibly epileptic, but that's another story). Paul was a self-declared apostle. Peter and James opposed him. The only authority he had was self-assigned. Please see couple of paragraphs above. Also read some of Geza Vermes's books, great insight from a Jewish historical perspective.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

but it's not my basis - we're discussing what's in the Bible, right ? you're just making an initial assumption that I'm not making. but surely, if two accounts are contradictory to each other, we must decide which one is closer to the truth. If witness A tells you that the incident happened in London and witness B tells you the incident happened in Glasgow, you must decide whether the incident happened in London or Glasgow. You're making the equivalent of deciding that the incident took place in the UK. That way both witnesses are technically correct.anyway, I respect your decision to refuse to accept that the Bible may be wrong. I was once there myself. Best of luck.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Yes ,but the part where it says "release the front wheel nut" is probably under the section "Removing the front wheel", while the "tighten the front wheel nut" is under the "Adding new front wheel" section. This is what context is all about.Both Paul and Jesus, however, are under the same "How to be saved" section. And they say different things about it. the context you're referring to is the assumption that they're all right, the bible cannot be wrong. Within that context you can invent justifications for anything against anything else. If that's your context for overviewing the mechanism of salvation, you may as well save yourself some time and hassle and continue believing what you believe in without questioning it.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

I thought I already had but here goes again. I also never asserted that it's works vs. trying; I asserted that it's works vs faith.Jesus's teaches that :- The only criteria for sending individuals to heaven or hell is whether the person gave food, drink or clothing to the destitute, and welcomed strangers and visited the sick and people in prison. (Matthew 25:31-46).- All you have to do to get saved is obey the commandments (Luke 10:25-27, Matthew 19:16-17, Luke 18:18-22 )- The Son of Man will reward each of us according to our works (Matthew 16:27)- A man who loves God and their neighbour is close to salvation (Mark 12:32-34)- Because of his kindness and generosity, Zacchaeus has been saved (Luke 19:8-9)Which of the above isn't clear to you ? You said it!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

..???... this passage describes the exact criteria to be used at the Final Judgment when Jesus separates all the people of the world into two groups: those who will enter heaven and those who will spend eternity in hell. These criteria are all behaviour-based, not faith-based! how do you see it as a 'consequence of being saved' ?? Irrelevant, the context here is Matthew not Acts. you're quoting Paul again! Jesus doesn't say that we cannot do this - you (and Paul) say so! Look at the context: Jesus is asked by a lawyer what he needs to do to gain eternal life. And Jesus tells him! Why would he tell him to do something that cannot be done ?! He also confirms this in the next verse : "And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." It's quite simple: Jesus says that if you love God and your fellow-man you will gain eternal life. (blimey, I sound like Jar!) ..???.. can you tell me what's supposed to happen at the second coming ?! I agree that close to salvation is not saved, but this passage is another suggestion that works do make a difference. If faith alone was enough, then this passage would be null and void. Again, look at the context here! (and no it's not Acts). In response to what does Jesus proclaim Zacchaeus saved ?In response to the following statement by Zacchaeus : "And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord, Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor, and if I have wrongfully exacted aught of any man, I restore fourfold". When Zacc demonsrated his fairness, justice and kindness, Jesus proclaims him saved.Not only that but I also think that Mosaic Law required someone who had stolen to restore the amount plus 50%. In that sense, you can say that Zacc was saved by obeying the law! and what criteria does he use to do the saving ? (hint: Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 16:27, Luke 10:27)

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."