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Author Topic:   Why must we believe *before* we die?
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 139 of 302 (248435)
10-03-2005 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
09-16-2005 9:40 AM


Late comer
Well, I read down the first page, and it was already starting to get hysterical. Especially when you see quotes like this:
quote:
I am going to try to answer this question seriously from the standpoint of a believer (even though I'm not one).
and
quote:
God reveals himself to good people only.
That has to be the funniest thing I ever read in these forums. I guess Paul was a good guy.
quote:
Why does God want us to reach belief in him in the very short period of our existence when it is hardest for us to do so? I mean, our life on earth is infinitely short compared to the eternal afterlife. Why can't God accept people who only come to believe after they have died and then see that everything they've been told in church is true after all?
That is probably one of the most down to earth questions I ever read in these forums. I have always asked myself the same thing. I am a believer, as you know, but my faith was only made full after I had an experience with the Holy Spirit. Before that, I had choose to accept Jesus on faith, and because I thought things I was reading in the bible, were starting to make sense to me. Before that, I had no idea what was going on.
But at no point in my life, did I ever feel like I was going to hell for the way I was living, or for my beliefs. I think God's grace is endless, and his mercy too. But if we read John 3:16 it says:
John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Just from reading that, our options are limited to 2 things, perish or have eternal life. Then Jesus also said, no one goes to father, except through me.
What does that mean exactly? When we die we go to the Pearly gates and there is Jesus with his gym shorts on, and he passes you the ball, and says, ok son, give me your best move to the hoop? If you get by me, you can get into heaven?
But I also look at the world and the way it is, and knowing what I went through in life, I never really had a fair chance at believing in God. If I would have died, then I feel it wouldn't be fair for me to go to hell. That’s my opinion only. Just look at all the religious BS, how the hell can we find God, when our Priests are molesting children, and people are trying to sell you green miracle rags on infomercials late at night. Then we have all the challenges of life we have to face, like abuse from parents, strangers, and loved ones. Trying to have relationship with persons of the opposite sex, and getting burned. Getting mugged. Starving to death, being homeless, drugs, being surrounded by non-believers who are angry at God, etc. etc. Everything we face, molds us into who we are. I mean what chance do we have? Really?
Jar thinks everyone is going to heaven. I don't know how true that is, but I think there is some truth to that statement.
But at some point in your life, someone told you there was a god, and you learned a little about it, and God put his laws on your heart and mind, the bible says so. So in your own heart, you know what is right and wrong. You look at the world around you, and based on what you know and went through, you can either say there is a God, or there isn't. If you said there is no God, I am pretty sure you still decided to live a good life, and be a good person anyway. You feel this is the right thing to do. You haven't ignored this feeling, and decided to be greedy, and get all you can get, regardless of anyone else. Or whatever. My point is, that God sees your heart, and you know your heart. I think you know in your heart already if you are getting into heaven or not.
That's just my opinion, and I do not know who is getting in or not. I can only speak for myself. Maybe I have more to learn, but I can't stand it when someone tries to tell you if your getting into heaven or not. Judge like you want to be judged, he who is without sin, can throw the first stone. Without God's grace, we ain't getting in no where. I think life is a test for us. But each one of us has to take his own test. How can someone else grade it, if they don't even know what was on your test?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Parasomnium, posted 09-16-2005 9:40 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by nator, posted 10-03-2005 2:26 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 179 by robinrohan, posted 10-03-2005 3:36 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 181 of 302 (248608)
10-03-2005 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by nator
10-03-2005 2:26 PM


Re: Late comer
Are you saying that you believe based upon something other than faith?
Something in addition to faith?
2 things mainly. One is subjective, and one is not.
I feel a physical manifectation of the Holy Spirit when he ministers to me. My body feels like it is plugged into an electric socket, but in a good way, almost orgasmic. Of course people will think I am crazy, or there is something else is wrong with me, and it is my own brain making me feel like that for one mental reason or another. But the timing of those feelings have been "tested" by myself, and they can make no sense sometimes, and have nothing to do with what I think is God. Sometimes he is just nudging me to do something, and when I ask, I get an answer, in my thoughts (no voices in head). Of course I was never told to ride a comet, or kill someone.
quote:being surrounded by non-believers who are angry at God, etc.
1) The above is self-contradictory.
You can't be angry at something you don't believe exists.
2) Where is this place where one is "surrounded" by non-believers?
I stand corrected, let me rephrase that please. The 2 should be separated, non-believers, and people who are angry at God, and choose not to follow him, and tend to teach that, or impose that to others. There are many here in this forum who do that. Which is fine, that is there freedom, thats what makes this America. But it doesn't give God a fair chance sometimes. What do I know.
I could say that I was for the most part surrounded by non-believers, or unbelievers? my whole life.
What I see now that I actually go to a church, and I am surrounded by all kinds of Christians, is young people who grow up in a Spirit filled Christian household, and come to know the Lord at an early age. Something I feel I would have never had the chance to do, because of my surroundings, and what was taught to me. The truth was concealed from me, I had to find it myself. Which is probably the way God wanted me to find him, and knowing my stubborness, he's right.
I get amazed at the youth when the are able to discern for themselves if there is a God or not, at an early age. I wasn't able to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by nator, posted 10-03-2005 2:26 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by nator, posted 10-03-2005 4:51 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 182 of 302 (248609)
10-03-2005 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by robinrohan
10-03-2005 3:36 PM


Re: Late comer
Apparently he didn't think so himself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by robinrohan, posted 10-03-2005 3:36 PM robinrohan has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 188 of 302 (248703)
10-03-2005 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by nator
10-03-2005 4:51 PM


Re: Late comer
Do you believe is it possible for people's emotional states to produce physical sensations?
Additionally, do you believe that these physical responses can be encouraged and/or learned through practice?
Lastly, is it possible for a person to be fooled into thinking that a physical sensation is caused by one thing but that it is self-caused?
It is possible.
You haven't tested anything.
No, I am a dumb ass.
You have already decided that those feelings you get are to be ascrbed to God, and you just look around for anything happening in your life and say "oh, right, so THAT'S what that feeling was about.
Thats way too complicated for me.
Well, there's always something difficult going on in people's lives.
More than we know. Since what has happened to me, has changed me physically, and mentally, I now walk in the light. I do my best to be a representative of who and what God is. But I lack of course, but its ok.
My point is, that I am in now in a position (I won't go into too much detail here) where people I meet with now pour their hearts out unto me. Remember, I am just a plumber HVAC business owner, not a shrink. I have been able, with the help of the Holy Spirit to help these people, and tell them what they need to hear. Sometimes, I do not even have to talk, but just listen. It's so freaky. It can't be me, but God in me, and I thank God for the opportunity to do his work. This is happening in way that never happened before, and the change was instant. And actually God told me it would happen. There is no logical explanation for all that has happened. I could write volumes about it. But you will no doubt come up with some crazy explanation, which by all rights will be possible, but hey, thats what makes it all subjective. Remember, I am a placebo.
If there seems to be no rhyme or reason to the timing of these feelings, why do you ascribe them to anything at all?
90% of the time, the reason is immediatly apparent, 9% of the time I need all of a few seconds to figure out what God is trying to tell me. The other 1%, may take some prayer, and life lessons for me to understand. You never stop growing.
God created the entire universe. Why does he need any help?
Yes, that is why I said "What do I know" I thought you would understand that. I am more humble than I appear in these forums.
Really? You were surrounded by people who all called themselves Athiests? Parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends, teachers, neighbors?
All atheists?
It was a mix, but 90% of people closest to me, did not practice thier beliefs, or did not believe at all. I was sent to CCD class, but at 8 years old, I decided that the whole catholic religion was a bunch of BS, and God did not exist, and if he did, no one on earth really knew who he was. I lived that way until I was 25, when I had my first child, and a light bulb went off in my head, and I started reading the bible little by little, very little. Took me another 13 years to arrive here.
But none of the people that surrounded me in my life, really knew who the Holy Spirit was, or lived by it. Maybe my Aunt knew, but I am not even sure if she knew it then. In the last 21 months, since having this experience, I have asked every Catholic I meet, who and what the Holy Spirit is, and none can answer me.
That's called "cultural religious training", rat.
Yes, I am aware of that, and I can usually detect when someone is fake, and really doesn't know the Spirit of God, if I am trying to. I don't like to judge, just let peoples actions speak for themselves.
They have so much cultural indoctrination and reinforcement to believe, why wouldn't they?
Because the truth has not been kept from them.
It clearly is expected of them, and it would greatly displease their parents to believe otherwise, and other faiths or non-belief is greatly feared and discouraged in the social environment, so why is it a surprise that the kids come out believing?
Usually the opposite happens, the child will rebel.
Almost all little kids in the US are taught to believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny, too, but are expected to grow out of it.
Thank you for the bedtime story Aunt schraf, I can go to sleep now, after I pray.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by nator, posted 10-03-2005 4:51 PM nator has not replied

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