Why must we believe *before* we die?

Don't know if it's been answered so already but here's my tuppence worth. It's all to do with Love. We are made in his image and likeness so it is possible for us to understand why it should be the way it is.I have a cat. I like stroking the cat from time to time. The cat has her own mind. Sometimes she enjoys being stroked, sometimes she couldn't bothered and will steer clear of me. Her choice.Now I can grab her, grip her in my lap and stroke her because I want to despite what she wants - because I'm able to do that. But any enjoyment I get is a sham. There is no enjoyment in it for her either. No choice = No love.And love between humans is the same. Is a rich, ageing billionaire receiving freely-given love from a 20-something trophy wife or is she there because of the rewards?And it is the same with God. God can only pour out his God-sized love on those who chose to receive it. God can only receive love from humans who have freely chosen to give it (and God shows them how to do that - they need teaching)So, an apparent catch-22. We can't truly know and then love him without 'seeing' him first...how can you believe in something you don't know exists - that's irrational. But he can't directly reveal himself to us without making it impossible for us not to believe him. If we have no choice then the whole thing falls apartThe resolution of the Catch-22 is the bit in the middle called "an act of faith". Someones got to blink. And it's God who does the blinking.... He looks at our hearts and knows what our hearts desire is. If our hearts want him (even if the 'want' isn't couched in our own minds as "I want God) then draw us towards himself he will - draw but not reveal so as to destroy our choice.At some point a person may come to realise a need of him and even though they still don't believe he exists, they have a desire for him (even though it still isn't framed as "I want God)For every bit of our hearts that desire him God puts in a hook of love and starts reeling in. And if we desire to pull away the pull away we can (the hook rips out and we feel pain: guilt, shame, despair). Our role, if there is any role for us is not to resist, to allow ourselves to be drawn. Drawn towards light, goodness, kindness, gentleness. If our hearts yearn for these things. If it despairs at the ugliness, deceit and pride every single one of us knows resides inside us, then that is God working on us.Eventually the person may arrive at a position similar to the man at the end of Romans 7. The voyage is almost over. Soon perhaps to be a fish pulled out of the water.And a very thankful, joyful and happey little fish they will be too

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

The analogies had to do with explaining why we must chose before we see God. Love can't exist without choice.God isn't only Love though. He is Wrath too. He is also Just(ice). All these attributes (or consider them forces) must be satisfied. This doesn't mean just equilibrium (where one force balances out the other - but there can be tension and compression) but at complete satisfaction, completely relaxed, under no strain.God's Justice cannot (no more than can our imperfect Justice systems) be satisfied in the presence of sin (crime). A criminal must be convicted in order for Justice to be satisfied. Conviction too, must bring punishment in order for Wrath to be satisfied. But God is also Love. That too needs to be satisfied. So God made a plan whereby he could satisfy Love but not wrench Justice and Wrath out of shape. He decided to allow the conviction and punishment for crimes to be carried out on a suitable substitute. Jesus.Hell is 'simply' a place for those who chose to have Gods justice and wrath expressed on themselves instead of a substitute. There won't be flames either - that's a biblical analogy used to express the horror of it to people in terms which they might grasp. Like who'd want to burn eternally?I think the very worst thing about Hell for those who will be there is...regret. Complete and utter....regret. They will know what they have missed out on, they will recognise that they were the ones to say 'NO'. They will regret ignoring God's call.... forever.Which is kind of why I write what I do...even if I'm not going there. I wouldn't wish it on worst enemy (if I had one)

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

You're:a) presuming the fishes optimal place is truly in the water.b) forgetting who the angler is. Of course you do.... "I am god". That's the story of the Bible. Man trying to be on the throne.This message has been edited by iano, 29-Sep-2005 04:18 PM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Good people aren't given salvation. Good people go to Hell. It's bad people who get saved.I would have thought it obvious. Like, why would a good person need salvation? From what must a good person be saved?"The Gospel is Good News for bad people and Bad News for good people"

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Lets say it has layers. "And I will make you a fisher of men" What do fish get pulled out of? The sea. What is the biblical picture for the sea? Evil, turmoil. What is a believer (the caught fish) on an earth (a place full of evil and turmoil)? An alien. Where is his true home, his citizenship? Heaven.The bible says we will feel like fish out of water. It's couldn't be more accurate. A believer longs for his true water - heaven. Accepting God doesn't mean you cease to exist - although the worship language of Christianity would make it appear that you become some kind of worshipping automaton. You actually only become a true self when you come to know God. God does nothing to interfere with who you are, what he does is remove the rubbish that stops you being fully you.At the moment your a guitar that's out of tune. The songs can be played but they sound discordant, sullied as they are by sin. God doesn't stop you from being a guitar. He just tunes you up.Take Paul for example. Before conversion, a top-grade Pharisee, part of the intellectual elite, master of the Judaic law, fanatical defender of his then faith. Nothing about his zeal, his intellect, his faith-defending abilities was altered by his conversion. God used the exact same characteristics, Pauls very own individual, God-given nature...but for His own purpose, not Satans.You're not independant RR, you are under the influence of someone. Satan (who assists you maintaining the illusion that you are master of your own destiny (god)) or God. You only get to choose which one.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

God cannot directly reveal himself - otherwise your free will to believe in him him would evaporate (if you consider for a moment what someone who created all this would be like to meet. He would be impossible to deny)God calls and a person can respond or not. In deciding 'no' they are saying in effect, "God I don't want you" (God only reveals himself when a person says "God I do want you (in whatever fashion that takes place)").When they die that decision becomes an eternal one - given that they have entered eternity. They haven't wanted God in life and God says in effect "thy will be done" - because their will is something he has given and will not take away. God 'wrath' involves complying with that persons will. He removes all his presence from them - because the person has chosen that that's what they want.It is perfectly just, perfectly fairWhat's so sick? It can be so easily avoided

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

A Christian who claims God is Love yet forgets to mention God is Wrath, God is Just etc is doing God and the person they are talking to a disservice. God is all of these things. All of these attributes must be satisifed.God cannot ignore sin, that wouldn't be just. God cannot not punish sin, that would conflict with his wrath. God being love means he cannot stand by and watch those he loves perish. All the attributes must be satisfied - equally. God has found a way whereby they all can be. Try taking your focus off YOU and focus on God for a sec. All that has to happen is that his attributes are fully satisfied - not yours. Remember that you are not the centre of the world - he is. God IS, you are only created.Can you put it into perspective? Like, step off the throne and look around. You don't belong on the throne - he does.Why not worship the rightful occupant of the throne. It's illogical not to.This message has been edited by iano, 30-Sep-2005 11:06 AM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

After she settles in, herself and myself are going to take a stroll down to meet Paul and his able disciple Martyn Lloyd Jones. Then I'm going to go off and satisfy my curiousity and see if Hitler is there. I'm also dying (sic) to see what work God has lined up for me. It will be something along the lines of Heavenly Engineering I hope. Not that I mind. I'll be enjoying it whatever. The list goes on

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

This won't be possible. That we are relational is a God-given attribute. Part of his providence. No God = none of God's blessing. You won't relate to anyone in any way that you understand (and enjoy it) here.Only your shame, your guilt, your deceit, your selfishness to comtemplate. All your own work as it were and nobody to blame. Don't think I take pleasure in saying this Omni. My guts churn and at times I cry my eyes out at the thought of others perishing so. God does too. One would go mad if one dwelt too long on it.Seek. For Christs and your own sake....seek....(ps: I am no less shameful, guilty, deceitful and selfish than you. A filthy sinner - likely worse. But someone has done something about it for me. I don't deserve this grace it any more than you. I just accepted it. It's as simple and complex as that)This message has been edited by iano, 30-Sep-2005 10:53 AM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Good people can't die. Only sinners die. "The wages of sin is death" No sin = no death.Or did you mean YOUR standard of good (which is not a standard - seeing as it is subjective). Gods standard of good (which is a standard - given that it is absolute) is the one that counts and by HIS standard, there are no good people - only bad.Mother Theresa, Hilter, you, me. All steeped in the filth and dirt of sin. There was only one born and who remained sinless. Only one who was considered a suitable sacrifice on which to lay sin. But death couldn't hold Jesus - which is why he rose from death.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Corrected. Sorry

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Man is born 'in' Adam. ie: he is, spiritually, in Adams camp. When a person turns to God, God carries out a forensic re-positioning. He takes the person out of Adam and puts him 'in' Christ (see for example Romans 8:1 for one of many 'in' statements).Jesus said "I am the water of life" "I AM" is a name God gives himself, water, life. If your a fish and you want to live then you need this water. You need to be in the water. You need to be in Christ. You need God to put you in the water. You need God to catch you. One is not self without God. They are shadows of self. Fully self means being plugged into what makes you self.God doesn't create evil, he creates choice. Consider the following: Heat exists, Cold doesn't. Cold is simply the absence of heat. Light exists, Darkness doesn't, Darkeness is simply the absence of light. Good exists, evil doesn't. Evil in simply the absence of Good. When God is excluded, evil follows. God doesn't obey higher laws, He is these things. Don't forget wrath and justice. Don't fall for the line God is Love - period.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

You don't go to a court expecting to be let off. Expecting grace. You expect to be convicted and punished. God is just and God is wrath and God is love. All apply - not just the bits you'd like to apply. For God to 'let off' would mean justice is thwarted. ParadoxThere are no paradoxes with God. God cannot let off. He can only save. He will save anyone who reaches out their hand. He will grasp it and never let go - not even when we sin again. Once he holds that's it - no matter what. As the old Provisional IRA recruitment motto went: "Once in, never out"

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Which is probably why I said he was sinless rather than good. There are no good people. Only bad people who think they're good and bad people who know they're bad.The Gospel is good news for bad people (who realise they're bad)Sinless means righteous before God. Jesus, son of God was righteous - always. A Christian is 'only' an adopted son of God. They wear a cloak of righteousness. Jesus cloakAnd he has one waiting for everyone who would don it

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

I know. I wanted to avoid a debate about Good (absolute) and good (subjective) which I've found to end up in a dead end before. I wanted to introduce what I felt was something that falls into the mechanism of salvaton which is not goodness but righteousness.Jesus wasn't good, he IS Good.If you catch my drift

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....