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Author Topic:   Why must we believe *before* we die?
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1907
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 256 of 302 (249722)
10-07-2005 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by iano
10-07-2005 7:26 AM


Back on Topic
Guys...the issues concerning the innerrency and reliability of scripture will be discussed forever. I suggest that we refocus on our Post Topic, however.
Parasomnium,in Opening Post writes:


Why does God want us to reach belief in him in the very short period of our existence when it is hardest for us to do so?

Why can't God accept people who only come to believe after they have died and then see that everything they've been told in church is true after all?

And if, when staring Peter in the face, you would still not believe in God and heaven, then God would really have a reason to send you straight to hell. (In which case you'd perhaps do well to pretend not to believe in Satan either, since I'm told hell is a rather nasty joint. Who knows, you might even get sent back to earth.)

Does God insist on people becoming believers during their lifetime?

Does God prefer people who will believe things in spite of a total lack of evidence?

Or is the afterlife a myth after all, and is infecting people's minds, while they are still operative, the only way for religious memes to survive and thrive?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by iano, posted 10-07-2005 7:26 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by iano, posted 10-07-2005 9:33 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 257 of 302 (249724)
10-07-2005 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Legend
10-06-2005 4:20 PM


Re: You said it!!
iano writes:

The passage says what it says until someone shows (not assumes) otherwise.

Legend writes:

* Brilliant!! * [clapping sound] I couldn't have said it better myself!

Did you actually read what went on here Legend or are you just trying to score points of some description. Mr. Ex quoted a verse to support to his view on salvation. I showed (not assumed) it to be otherwise taking it in relation to the chapter from whence it was plucked. In showing to relate to something other than salvation (salvation wasn't mentioned in the whole chapter) I hope to demonstrate Mr Ex is in error.

None of your verses show salvation by works. Take Lukes rich, young man. Jesus says do this, that and the other and you will be saved. Can any man do them? I suggest he can't (especially when you take Jesus describing in Matthew what murder and adultery involve (anger/lust). How can a man be saved by works if he can't do the work required?

Jesus said "do this". He didn't say "try and do them" or "do your best to do them". That's what the passage says: "do". If you want to insert 'try' then it's up to you to show (biblcally) that try is the way it works.

iano writes:

The passage says what it says until someone shows (not assumes) otherwise.

(ps: I looked up a Concordance under 'try' and 'trying'. There are about 8 references to these words in any context in the New Testament. Such a search for salvation-by-trying will I reckon be fruitless :))


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Legend, posted 10-06-2005 4:20 PM Legend has not yet responded

Legend
Member (Idle past 3086 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 258 of 302 (249726)
10-07-2005 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by iano
10-07-2005 7:11 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
iano writes:

Mark wasn't an eyewitness. He was using secondhand material. What makes it his 'theology and thus acceptable to you for examination?

You say Luke allegedly. Why Mark and Matthew certainly?

Why John excluded

Why Paul excluded?

Why is Matthew included?

I'm now beginning to suspect that you didn't misunderstand me but are deliberately trying to steer this towards a different and distracting direction.

Let's stay focused :

Back in Message 136 you asked:

iano writes:

Name even one law, the carrying out of which will get you to heaven.

Both me and others in this thread proceeded to give you a number of laws, mainly from Mark, Matthew and Luke, that Jesus claimed will get you to heaven.

You then tried to rebutt this by claiming that Jesus didn't mean what he said in the Synoptics, using quotes and theology from Paul and John as the context of interpretation of the synoptics. I'm quoting you from Message 141

iano writes:

The law cannot save. It is not intended to save. (edit) The law has only one purpose - to show us that we cannot keep it. It is not by following the law that we are saved but by realising that we can't follow the law.

There is nowhere in the synoptics that allows you to infer this. This is what Paul says. You're applying Paul's theology to the synoptics,

You've also said in Message 207

iano writes:

Whether it is true of not has nothing to do with this. We're just looking at whether it [the Bible] contradicts itself internally or not.

So this is where we are. It doesn't matter whether Matt, Luke & Mark are true or not, we're just looking at what they say about salvation.

We're trying to determine whether the Bible contradicts itself internally or not, like you said.

Whether Mark was an eyewitness or not is irrelevant here, it's what he says about salvation that matters.
Whether Luke was Paul's follower or not is irrelevant here, it's what he says about salvation that matters.

What do Matt, Luke & Mark tell us that Jesus said you can do to get saved ?

Not what Paul says, not what John says - what does Jesus say according to Matt, Luke & Mark ?

once we've established what Jesus in Matt, Luke & Mark says about salvation then we can look at Paul, John or whoever else you want.

Like you said, we're just looking at whether the Bible contradicts itself internally or not.

So, what do Matt, Luke & Mark tell us that Jesus said you can do to get saved ?


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by iano, posted 10-07-2005 7:11 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by iano, posted 10-07-2005 9:11 AM Legend has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 259 of 302 (249735)
10-07-2005 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Legend
10-07-2005 8:12 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
Looks like we've been rumbled by Admin Legend so it last word time...

Legend writes:

We're trying to determine whether the Bible contradicts itself internally or not, like you said....What do Matt, Luke & Mark tell us that Jesus said you can do to get saved ?

I hope you agree that if the two of us have a different definition of what is the bible then there is little point in continuing along those lines. You can't check for contradiction if you exclude the areas which you say contradicts from the discussion.

Admin is right in that we've drifted off the off-topic we drifted onto.

Cheers for now Legend


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Legend, posted 10-07-2005 8:12 AM Legend has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Legend, posted 10-07-2005 12:20 PM iano has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 260 of 302 (249739)
10-07-2005 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by AdminPhat
10-07-2005 7:53 AM


Re: Back on Topic
Parsomnium writes:

Does God insist on people becoming believers during their lifetime?

Does God prefer people who will believe things in spite of a total lack of evidence?

He doesn't insist. He doesn't force. Better worded: the 'entry requirements' are that a person becomes a believer during their time on earth.

God doesn't expect a person to believe anything without evidence. He will call and a person may or may not respond to the call. If they do they respond, God will lead them to the point where it is possible for them to make an act of faith. The act is not made in a vacuum. The lack of evidence is not total. That would be irrational. And God is not and does not expect us to be irrational. He wants us to choose and "he wants that none should perish". He gives us a choice. He can create the circumstances where such an act of faith is possible and not irrational. But not a foregone conclusion...


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by AdminPhat, posted 10-07-2005 7:53 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

Legend
Member (Idle past 3086 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 261 of 302 (249788)
10-07-2005 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by iano
10-07-2005 9:11 AM


Re: Religion and destruction of self-reliance
I agree with the admin that this has drifted OT.

However, the phrase "saved by the bell" springs to mind ;)

..till we meet again iano,


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by iano, posted 10-07-2005 9:11 AM iano has not yet responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4628 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 262 of 302 (249799)
10-07-2005 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by iano
10-06-2005 1:08 PM


Re: For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not tRe: How to get to heaven
Alright.

Technically speaking, I disagree with your observation about the passage I quoted. It seems to me that our responsibilities as Christians are intricately linked with our salvation. However, for the sake of discussion, perhaps you could display the passages outside the gospels that were spoken by Paul (and the others) -- the passages which stress salvation solely by faith in Christ.

Within the context of the passages which specifically discuss salvation from Christ, I think that with a careful reading one can also see Paul warning us not to think too highly of ourselves. To suggest that there is no causal connection with salvation/damnation here at all seems to be overlooking how much other parts of the Scriptures do seem to stress the good deeds necessary.

Again, I'm not saying that our good deeds save us. I'm saying that it is the Spirit of God at work in each person which saves us -- and that the good works observed are simply the end result of the motion of God's Spirit at work in us.

iano writes:

However, whilst you explain well how it is not "salvation by works" or by earning our way to heaven, you haven't covered "damnation by works" (which is well on topic) which still puts salvation in our hands.

What other option is there?

If God simply saves whoever he chooses to save -- without any possibility of humanity even choosing their own paths -- then there seems to be basically no difference between God "saving" a person's soul and that of nature "naturally selecting" a species as being fit for survival.

In regards to our salvation, I don't believe that God works that way -- and I find it odd that many denounce evolutionary models as cruel yet adamantly insist that God "saves" in a manner that is not far removed from the blind mechanisms of Darwinian evolution.

iano writes:

I don't know if you are in agreement that the only person who has the spirit is a person who is in Christ, ie: only Christians.

Actually, I do.

However, I would qualify that while all Christians have a permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit within them so long as they are alive, non-Christians can still nonetheless be moved by the Spirit toward salvation -- and I do believe that many non-Christians are moved toward salvation more often than some Christians would permit.

iano writes:

On what basis do you hold, which you appear to, to the idea that exerising this ability to resist will result in loss of salvation for someone who is Christ given that, for example "There is now no condemnation for those that are in Christ".

Are you suggesting that we Christians can do whatever we please without having to face the wrath of God -- because I don't think that's what the passage you've quoted above means.

In response to this, I suppose passages such as this come to mind:

NIV writes:

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because* to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

*or "while"

It seems to me that there are many passages in the Scriptures which testify that Christians can fall away from their salvation in Christ. Somewhere between the passage you've quoted and the passage I've quoted probably lays the exact point where God resolves the fine-line between salvation and damnation.

I guess I'll just stick with what I've been saying all along: God judges in proportion to that which is revealed to each individual.

iano writes:

Every man resists to some degree - no one responds perfectly to the Spirits guidance. Where is the cut off point for salvation/no salvation and how is that determined? Or is it a case of "you'll find out when you get there"? What is the biblical warrant for the RC view if any?

If you're asking me to personally discern the exact line between damnation and salvation from one individual to the next, I'll readilly admit that I do not know that. I cannot see into the spirit of each individual.

Only God knows that -- and I'm not God.

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-07-2005 01:07 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by iano, posted 10-06-2005 1:08 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by jar, posted 10-07-2005 12:48 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded
 Message 265 by iano, posted 10-10-2005 7:44 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 263 of 302 (249805)
10-07-2005 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-07-2005 12:35 PM


Re: For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not tRe: How to get to he
Is there a way to know someones heart other than by observing their behavior?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-07-2005 12:35 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-07-2005 1:02 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 266 by iano, posted 10-10-2005 7:46 AM jar has responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4628 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 264 of 302 (249815)
10-07-2005 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by jar
10-07-2005 12:48 PM


Re: For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not tRe: How to get to he
Well..people can pretend to be Christians and be far off the mark. There are certain televangelists that I can think off that could match this, such as the con-artist Benny Hinn. In other words, they carry on and call themselves Christians so as to get approval from others -- but their hearts may possibly be in the wrong place.

Likewise, in inverse proportion, I suspect that there are some that do believe in God, and it's known by their actions, and yet their experiences in other cultures may be antagonistic toward God and somewhat obscure their ability to really display their faith.

It seems to me that there are many ways one could misunderstand what a person actually thinks and believes. Likewise, some could be pretending to believe in God, even going through the motions becuase it's what others expect (and thus appearing to be a believer), and yet deep down inside they may have no faith at all.

I think only God can say for sure what's going on in the hearts of each individual.

Edit: corrected spelling.

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-07-2005 01:04 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by jar, posted 10-07-2005 12:48 PM jar has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 265 of 302 (250378)
10-10-2005 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-07-2005 12:35 PM


Re: For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not tRe: How to get to heaven
mr ex writes:

Technically speaking, I disagree with your observation about the passage I quoted

Technically speaking I would have to agree with you here. 1 swallow doesn't make a summer. Neither 1 passage a doctrine (and such a important one at that)

Nevertheless, the passage you quote is not speaking about behaviour in (causal or any other)connection with salvation. It is speaking to people in the church about behaviour. To infer that there is another overarching principle in which the passage is nested is fair enough, but the passage doesn't indicate what that is. That evidence for it being salvation linked must come from elsewhere.

Within the context of the passages which specifically discuss salvation from Christ, I think that with a careful reading one can also see Paul warning us not to think too highly of ourselves.

Salvation it seems is from God through Christ. We indeed read the warning not to think too highly of ourselves. There are good reasons to warn - but none referred to which warn in salvation/damnation sense.

To suggest that there is no causal connection with salvation/damnation here at all seems to be overlooking how much other parts of the Scriptures do seem to stress the good deeds necessary.

Good deeds are talked about all over the place - true. But in connection with salvation all that is referred to is "do this, that and the other". Saying good deeds necessary is a understandable, but only if unwarranted inferrances are made about what Jesus said. In connection with salvation he said "don't lust, don't be angry etc. What man has ever followed his teaching? Trying is not indicated anywhere to be causal in connection with salvation/damnation - just 'do'.

Again, I'm not saying that our good deeds save us. I'm saying that it is the Spirit of God at work in each person which saves us -- and that the good works observed are simply the end result of the motion of God's Spirit at work in us.

I agree that good works flow as a result of the indwelling of Gods Spirit. But again, there is no connection with the resultant works (or probably more relevant: resistance to the Spirits efforts) having anything to do with salvation/damnation.

iano writes:

However, whilst you explain well how it is not "salvation by works" or by earning our way to heaven, you haven't covered "damnation by works" (which is well on topic) which still puts salvation in our hands.

mr ex writes:

What other option is there?

The other option is that God does the saving altogether. He delivered the solution: complete, perfectly effectual, it will never fail. He is the one who delivers. We can't effect our salvation we can only accept what he offered. It is not of us

"Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling" as the hymn goes

However, I would qualify that while all Christians have a permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit within them so long as they are alive, non-Christians can still nonetheless be moved by the Spirit toward salvation -- and I do believe that many non-Christians are moved toward salvation more often than some Christians would permit.

Everybody has been a non-Christian. All were born in Adam. None is born with an indwelling of the spirit. All must recieve this. Every Christian must be taken out of Adam and put 'in' Christ. I agree that it is the Spirit which moves people to the point of seeing and confessing their need. Not by dwelling in the person though - that isn't indicated biblically. In this sense God moves a person 'towards' salvation. As soon as they are saved they recieve Gods spirit. Everyone who has the spirit belongs to Christ and cannot be lost. Everyone who doesn't have the spirit doesn't belong to Christ and if they die this way - are lost.

iano writes:

On what basis do you hold, which you appear to, to the idea that exerising this ability to resist will result in loss of salvation for someone who is Christ given that, for example "There is now no condemnation for those that are in Christ".

Mr Ex writes:

Are you suggesting that we Christians can do whatever we please without having to face the wrath of God -- because I don't think that's what the passage you've quoted above means.

It's a common objection when people are told the Good News which includes the fact that their works have no bearing on salvation/loss of salvation. " Gee!!! Does that mean I get to sin all I want?!!!"

"By no means" says Paul at the start of Roman 6. He deals with this very 'objection' because it is a natural consequence of the unregenerate man (in Adam) when faced with the Gospel. What he doesn't reckon on however, is that the Spirit is going to move in. And that will bring change, a change in view as to what sin is. The man in Christ won't view salvation without works as "Yipeee! I can sin all I like" He will come to hate sin in himself and will (by the very Spirit who dwells in him) groan when he does sin - yet again.

I suggest that Christians can do what they want and not lose their salvation. I also suggest that it is unlikely that a Christian will just do what he wants precisely because the spirit dwells in him. But we can grieve the Spirit and resist his work. For this there are consequences. But not loss of salvation. There is no wrath in connection with Christians who sin. Discipline yes, wrath, no.

Mr Exs NIV writes:

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because* to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

This (Hebrews 6)is a controversial passage and theologically, different views apply. The link below covers the common views...one of which is that the passage doesn't talk about Christians. I'd tend to agree: "a taste of something" is inconsistant with the radical transformation that is both explained technically and evidentially elsewhere.
I'm a biker: rain or shine. It is ingrained into me. Many like the idea of a bike: the image, the easing through congested traffic. They go out and buy a bike get a taste but fall away. They are not bikers - even though they've owned a bike for a short while. The spirit of biking never comes in. Just a taste.

http://www.leaderu.com/isot/docs/heb2.html

It seems to me that there are many passages in the Scriptures which testify that Christians can fall away from their salvation in Christ.

What are these? Any clear cut ones where Christians are involved?

Somewhere between the passage you've quoted and the passage I've quoted probably lays the exact point where God resolves the fine-line between salvation and damnation.

The line is quite simple although I can't look into anothers heart either. In Christ or not. In Christ or In Adam. In Christ is a forensic, legal declaration. The mechanics of this and how it works is explained in Romans in some detail. But there is no mechanical talk of how a person in Christ can be taken out of Christ again. Now, how could one who is in Christ be damned. If you're in him, he would have to go to damnation with you - unless you could be separated again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-07-2005 12:35 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-13-2005 3:26 AM iano has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 266 of 302 (250379)
10-10-2005 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by jar
10-07-2005 12:48 PM


Re: For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not tRe: How to get to he
Jar writes:

Is there a way to know someones heart other than by observing their behavior?

You can't tell anothers heart by observing their behaviour. Heart is motivation. And there are many possible motivations behind apparant 'good deeds' Getting to heaven being one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by jar, posted 10-07-2005 12:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 10-10-2005 2:43 PM iano has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 267 of 302 (250441)
10-10-2005 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by iano
10-10-2005 7:46 AM


Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
I get the feeling that I have still failed to explain my point. Let me try once again.

You said:

And there are many possible motivations behind apparant 'good deeds' Getting to heaven being one.

Personally, I think that any good deed done with getting to heaven as the motivation would neither help or even be considered by GOD.

You keep returning to Earning Salvation as though that had anything to do with my point.

Once more into the breach...

GOD granted Salvation to all mankind. It's a done deal, gratas, to everybody, to Jew and Hindu and Satanist and Pagan and Atheist and Agnostic and Muslim and Rastafarian and Christian.

GOD also expects us to TRY to do right, not succeed but to TRY.

If we do not try to do what's right or if we actively try to do what's wrong, then we can blow what was already given to us.

It really is as simple as that.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by iano, posted 10-10-2005 7:46 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 5:01 AM jar has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 268 of 302 (250650)
10-11-2005 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by jar
10-10-2005 2:43 PM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
Jar writes:

Personally, I think that any good deed done with getting to heaven as the motivation would neither help or even be considered by GOD. You keep returning to Earning Salvation as though that had anything to do with my point.

Earning/losing. There's not a whole pile of difference Jar. You have it but behavior loses it, you don't have it and certain behaviour gains it. A persons salvation depends on what they do/don't do.

What practical difference is there. It involves struggling with the tendency we all have to sin. Does it not?

GOD granted Salvation to all mankind. It's a done deal, gratas, to everybody, to Jew and Hindu and Satanist and Pagan and Atheist and Agnostic and Muslim and Rastafarian and Christian.

I don't know if your in the same frame as Legend in deciding that certain bits of the bible aren't the bible. If not then this statement would have trouble holding up biblically. From whence this idea - salvation for all?

GOD also expects us to TRY to do right, not succeed but to TRY.

The words 'try' and 'trying' appear less than a dozen times in the NT. And not in connection with salvation. Whats the biblical warrant for this?

Quick...it's almost witching hour:)


"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 10-10-2005 2:43 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by jar, posted 10-11-2005 11:19 AM iano has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 269 of 302 (250775)
10-11-2005 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by iano
10-11-2005 5:01 AM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
The words 'try' and 'trying' appear less than a dozen times in the NT. And not in connection with salvation. Whats the biblical warrant for this?

Is GOD stupid?

What practical difference is there.

There is a host of difference. You cannot earn salvation, salvation is already given to ALL mankind. You are charged, and have been since the very beginning, to do what is right. It has NOTHING to do with sin.

From whence this idea - salvation for all?

Is GOD some bling-bling Pimp Daddy worried that someone might dis him?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 5:01 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by iano, posted 10-11-2005 11:44 AM jar has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 270 of 302 (250788)
10-11-2005 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by jar
10-11-2005 11:19 AM


Re: Everybody saved, 'cept maybe Christians
iano writes:

The words 'try' and 'trying' appear less than a dozen times in the NT. And not in connection with salvation. Whats the biblical warrant for this?

Jar writes:

Is GOD stupid?

I don't follow. Do you mean God would be stupid to give the impression that it was by trying when it really wasn't? That would imply that God was giving that impression. I agree, if only snippets of the bible are referred to. But surely that is the 'fault' of the recipient for not taking in the whole. Like I said the words 'try' or 'trying' don't appear in connection with salvation/damnation. Thus that connection is biblically unwarranted

There is a host of difference. You cannot earn salvation, salvation is already given to ALL mankind. You are charged, and have been since the very beginning, to do what is right. It has NOTHING to do with sin.

So you say. What I'm trying to establish is where this idea comes from - in the context of the bible. Not Jar repeating it to be so. I gather you believe this but on what biblical foundation is this built?

iano writes:

From whence this idea - salvation for all?

jar writes:

Is GOD some bling-bling Pimp Daddy worried that someone might dis him?

Answering a question with a question is bad enough but when half the words mean nothing to this Irish lad then all hope is lost :) Any ideas on the original question?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by jar, posted 10-11-2005 11:19 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by jar, posted 10-11-2005 11:49 AM iano has responded

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