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Author Topic:   Could the universe have been created for no reason?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 103 (457063)
02-21-2008 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 12:56 PM



This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 17 of 103 (457064)
02-21-2008 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 12:56 PM


Quotes are done using dBCodes, which are much like the codes used at most message boards, but with a number of enhancements.
When you're typing your post into the message box, look to your left. You'll see a "help" link next to where it says "dBCodes On". Click on that and you'll find all the help you need.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 103 (457065)
02-21-2008 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:02 PM


I meant that my faith is so strong that in my heart I know he exists.
So then you don't really KNOW....
Also, "Catholic Scientist", you seem to be (in my opionion) trying to prove me wrong, but you said you believe in Jesus. I'm confused.
Its called debating. That's what we do on debate forums
I can believe in Jesus and still argue with you about Christianity. You wouldn't believe some of the crazy shit that Chistians believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:02 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:20 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 19 of 103 (457067)
02-21-2008 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by New Cat's Eye
02-21-2008 12:59 PM


So atheists just want to live and die without the belief of living in peace and harmony? That's sad.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2008 12:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by subbie, posted 02-21-2008 1:17 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2008 1:25 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 29 by Granny Magda, posted 02-21-2008 1:33 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 37 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 1:52 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 20 of 103 (457070)
02-21-2008 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 12:50 PM


HI CJ, welcome to EvC!
You seem to have a very anthropocentric view of the universe, if I may say so.
Are we just here to live this short and sometimes chaotic and stressful life and then die and never live again on Earth or in the afterlife? That just doesn't seem very exciting to me. We live we die and we never have anything afterwords? To me that's just boring.
Boring eh? Well I am sorry to report that the universe doesn't care whether you are bored or not. There is no requirement that the universe should excite you. If it doesn't, I'm afraid that's what we call tough shit.
From the point of view of a materialist, the universe has no purpose, other than what purpose we ascribe to it. Whilst some may find this dispiriting, I find it rather reassuring. For those who do not believe in a creator god, the universe is not top-down, but bottom-up. There is no top-down reason for our existence. Thus, our purpose, our morality and all that we are, must be our own responsibility. We must find our own reason to live.
As for how the universe formed, I suggest that you read up on the Big Bang theory, but if you are expecting an answer to the "why" type questions, you are going to be disappointed.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 12:50 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:33 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 21 of 103 (457071)
02-21-2008 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:08 PM


So atheists just want to live and die without the belief of living in peace and harmony? That's sad.
No, we just find our peace and harmony in something other than a fairy tale. In my mind, it's much sadder that folks live their entire lives believing in a hereafter that's never going to come.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:08 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:28 PM subbie has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 22 of 103 (457072)
02-21-2008 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
02-21-2008 12:52 PM


Oh know...
Catholic Scientist writes:
If you really do know that god exists, then you really don't have any faith that he does, right? You don't have faith in things that you know. If you really do know that god exists, then you really don't have any faith that he does, right? You don't have faith in things that you know.
A biblical (as opposed to dictionary) definition of faith
quote:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
To know something is the case is to be sure and certain it is the case. This I know.
I would also say that you cannot know that god exists. How do you know what you think is god really is god.
Which only goes to show that knowing something is the case doesn't mean it necessarily is. Irrespective of what it is you think you know or what the means are by which you know it. For example...
A sufficiently advanced technology ...
...could have a PlayStation game in which you are but a character. As long as junior presses the x button occasionally you'll know there is a computer screen on front of you even though there really isn't one there.
Knowing. It's the highest court of appeal we have - given that we ourselves are not divine.

This message is a reply to:
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ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 23 of 103 (457073)
02-21-2008 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by New Cat's Eye
02-21-2008 1:04 PM


So then you don't really KNOW....
Dude, okay, I have faith that God exists. Is that better for you? Just so you know, people have a hard time understanding because of the way I use my words.
Also, I know it's debating, I was confused because I thought you were trying to disprove God.
I also want to know, if the universe has always been here, then why didn't it just stay as it was? Why did it create humans and other life?

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2008 1:04 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2008 1:29 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 47 by BMG, posted 02-21-2008 2:12 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 90 by fallacycop, posted 02-23-2008 6:09 AM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 103 (457076)
02-21-2008 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:08 PM


So atheists just want to live and die without the belief of living in peace and harmony?
Not believing in god does not mean that they cannot believe in living in peace and harmony.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:08 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 25 of 103 (457078)
02-21-2008 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by subbie
02-21-2008 1:17 PM


No, we just find our peace and harmony in something other than a fairy tale. In my mi
Okay, you believe it's a fairy tale. I do believe we are going to have an afterlife.
I will pray for you.
If their was no God or Jesus, I would not pray for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by subbie, posted 02-21-2008 1:17 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by subbie, posted 02-21-2008 1:31 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 30 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 1:33 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 26 of 103 (457080)
02-21-2008 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 12:31 PM


I know the universe exists and I never said their "had" to be a purpose. (I also don't need to believe their is one to make me feel better) I should have worded my statement better. You claim that you don't no that God exists, that's fair. I know he exists (that's my belief you don't have to agree)
Exactly: faith. Not evidence or anything you can "prove." Just like I said. Faith is the only reason to believe in a deity, because as of yet there is no real evidence of a deity's existence. This is why I say that trying to "prove" god or add god to science is a fool's errand - I'm not saying that you're a fool, only that your attempt to "prove" god by insisting that we need a "purpose" is foolish.
But, atheists say that the universe has always been here. I want to know, if it has, how did it just suddenly appear? I have asked atheists and they say it just did, they don't know why.
(I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just so you know)
No worries.
The Universe exists as a discrete entity with certain dimensions, like length and width. One of those dimensions is time. We only experience time in a single direction because of the nature of the chemical/electrical reactions that are our thoughts - the direction of increasing entropy. But time is a part of the Universe - asking what came "before" the Universe is basically asking what came "before" time. You're basically asking what is North of the North Pole - the question simply doesn't make sense.
If we represent time as a ray, like this:
*------------------------------>
What does the line look like to the left of the *? The question doesn't make sense - there is no line to the left of the *.
So when we say that the Universe has always existed, we mean literally that the Universe has existed for all of time - because time itself is part of the Universe.
Now, there may exist additional dimensions we are unaware of, and our Universe may be one among many, and there could be a "cause" for our Universe there. But this is mere speculation - I may as well speculate as to the shape of blue. Until we have evidence suggesting that such extraneous entities as additional dimensions or universes (or deities, or Tooth Fairies) exist, parsimony insists that they need not be considered, as they are apparently irrelevant at the least.
So when you say, you don't believe their is a God because you have no proof, then that is rational? But, when I say it was created by God because no one knows how it got here, then I'm irrational?
I don't even ask for "proof." I ask for evidence that even suggests there may be a deity - then I'd at least be an agnostic. As it is, with no evidence whatsoever, I'm forced into atheism. There could be a god, certainly, but without evidence to suggest such a conclusion, I have to say "probably not."
I won't say you're "irrational" for believing in a god. I will say that it's silly to believe in god because "no one knows how the Universe got here." You haven't really answered your own question, then - "goddidit" doesn't describe how the Universe got here, and more than "jimfixedit" explains how my car was repaired.
I will also say that belief in a deity without evidence suggesting its existence violates parsimony, commonly called Occam's Razor.
IF
1 + 1 = 2
AND
1 + 1 + x = 2,
THEN
x = 0.
The "x" can be there, but it doesn't matter to the rest of the equation, so we assume it does not exist.
So, likewise:
IF
(matter) + (energy) + (natural physical laws) = (observable universe)
AND
(matter) + (energy) + (natural physical laws) + (God) = (observable universe)
THEN
"God" may or may not exist, but we can reasonably assume it does not, pending additional information that may eventually require his addition to the equation.
The only reason to believe in god, again, is faith. Which is why attempting to prove god through such emotional means as appealing to some "purpose" is a fool's errand - it won't get you anywhere.
Well, if their is no proof of God (as you say) and their is no proof of how the universe just automatically got here by itself, then why should anyone believe atheists or Christians?
Atheists generally don't try to convince anyone. Christians do that. But again, we know that the Universe exists. We don't know that god exists, particularly the Christian god. That the Universe "got here by itself" is no less reasonable than observing that snowflakes form "by themselves." "God" is an unfounded assertion, and must be taken on faith. For those who are able to have faith in something for which there is no evidence, that's enough. For those of us that are unable to do so, and see no difference between believing in "god" or "fairies" or "invisible pink unicorns" or "Santa Claus," Christianity is not reasonable.
That's what makes the determining factor. If you are able to take god on nothing but faith, feel free to do so. If you find yourself unable to assume anything exists on nothing but faith, then don't. It's that simple.
Also, don't call me a fool because I believe something you don't. I never said you were a fool because you disagree with my beliefs.
I apologize for the misunderstanding, but I'm not calling you or your beliefs foolish. I find them to be illogical and poor reasoning myself, but that's why I'm not a Christian.
My usage of the term "fool's errand" is a turn of phrase that basically means "futile." Your efforts to suggest god exists by suggesting that the Universe should have a purpose of some sort are futile, because they actually prove nothing more than an emotional desire for purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 12:31 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 103 (457081)
02-21-2008 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:20 PM


Re: So then you don't really KNOW....
Dude, okay, I have faith that God exists. Is that better for you?
Yeah, dude
People throw the word "know" around without thinking about it.
Also, I know it's debating, I was confused because I thought you were trying to disprove God.
I don't think it is possible to disprove god. But I also don't think you're going to prove god. So I just try to disprove the proofs for god but I'm not trying to disprove god, herself.
I also want to know, if the universe has always been here, then why didn't it just stay as it was?
The universe is not static. It is always changing and does not "stay as it is".
Why did it create humans and other life?
Its an inevitability of the laws of physics. Why? I don't know. I'll just have to trust Jesus on that one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:20 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 28 of 103 (457082)
02-21-2008 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:28 PM


Re: No, we just find our peace and harmony in something other than a fairy tale. In m
If their [sic] was no God or Jesus, I would not pray for you.
You would if you thought there were.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:28 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 29 of 103 (457085)
02-21-2008 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:08 PM


Work for Peace
So atheists just want to live and die without the belief of living in peace and harmony? That's sad.
It would be sad if it were true. Under an atheistic world-view, it is our job to promote peace and harmony, that is actual peace and harmony, not merely the belief in it. We must do it for ourselves, rather than hoping that peace will at some point be imposed from above by God.
"Nobody can do everything,
but everybody can do something,
everyone must play a part,
everyone got to go to work, Work for Peace." - Gil Scott-Heron

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 30 of 103 (457086)
02-21-2008 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 1:28 PM


Re: No, we just find our peace and harmony in something other than a fairy tale. In m
If their was no God or Jesus, I would not pray for you.
Correction: if you did not believe there is a god and Jesus, you would not pray.
Your belief does not equate to their actual existence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:28 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:37 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
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