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Author Topic:   Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists Apply Within
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 277 (497324)
02-03-2009 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
02-01-2009 7:15 PM


Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists/Atheists Apply Within
1) Which came first for you personally (honestly) - Belief in God/Jesus/Bible or knowledge of the empirical evidence that you consider to support this position?
The empirical evidence came first. Like most people I had been trained as a child to believe in God, but came to the conclusion it probably wasn’t true around the time I was 13 or 14 and held that belief for over 20 years.
2) Are your beliefs the result of rational and objective conclusions based on physical evidence which have been confirmed by your relationship with God OR are your beliefs based on your relationship with God which you deem to have been confirmed by the objective physical evidence available? Which way round is it?
I hope you are not confusing physical and empirical evidence. When I was 16 I was looking out the front window of my parent’s house and saw a very large meteor streak across the sky from east to west. It was as big as the full moon and much brighter. Freaked me out.
Ran to the kitchen where everyone was and they hadn’t seen a thing. I’ve never personally met anyone else who had seen it and there are no pictures and it was not found. There is no physical evidence of its existence, but there is empirical evidence for its existence. I mean I did see it.
So in answer to 2.) I have no physical evidence, but my beliefs are the result of rational and objective conclusions based on empirical evidence. The relationship with God thing doesn’t make sense to me as I exist in a universe with spatial dimensions and time and he is in a “place” with no space and no time. He’s not in this universe or doing anything here so I have no relationship with him.
3) Could you maintain your faith in the absence of any objective empirical evidence that supports this position? (I.e. how faithful are you?)
No, I have no faith, just my experience to go on. I might mention you have as much chance of changing my mind on God’s existence as convincing me I did not see that meteor.
4) If the objective empirical evidence which you deem to support your beliefs were present but the relationship with God side of your faith was absent would you still believe as you do? (I.e. is the empirical evidence alone enough to maintain your position?)
Yes, as explained above God isn’t operating in this universe . .so no relationship exists.
5) Is empirical evidence or subjective knowledge of God's presence the root basis of your beliefs?
Empirical evidence.
As a note I am not a Christian, JC is not God and the bible wasn’t written by God. I answered your OP because you said “theists”, and I didn’t want you to remain ethnocentrically stuck.
My religion has one founder and one follower, and they are both me. Getting others to believe what I know is of no practical value. People need to discover and look for themselves, not believe what others tell them. Otherwise it makes no real difference in their lives.
I am not as quick as you to dismiss out of hand other peoples out of the ordinary or “religious experiences”. Make sure you are not practicing confirmation bias based on your non belief in God when you decide which empirical evidence to keep and which to pitch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 02-01-2009 7:15 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2009 2:10 PM petrophysics1 has replied
 Message 21 by subbie, posted 02-03-2009 2:46 PM petrophysics1 has replied
 Message 25 by bluegenes, posted 02-03-2009 3:45 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 277 (497328)
02-03-2009 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Straggler
02-03-2009 2:10 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists/Atheists Apply Within
The whole differentiation between objective empirical evidence and purely subjective evidence is the ability to independently verify one form but not the other.
If you are claiming to have "seen" meteors which nobody else saw and for which there is no other objective empirical evidence in favour of then I would class this as subjective "evidence".
Your meteor and your God are thus equally unevidenced in any objective terms.
Really?
In October of 1917 around 70,000 people witnessed "something" happen to the sun in Fatima, Portugal. They attributed it to a miracle by the Virgin Mary, but that is not the point. Did something happen or not? It was witnessed by 70,000.
Have you ever seen a very large meteor?
How do you know they exist?
Did you read some book, which you believe, which told you so?
Other than me, have you ever met anyone who has seen a very large meteor enter the atmosphere? (I'm not talking shooting stars here.)
P.S. You seem to be saying that if one person experiences something it is subjective. So do two subjective expierences equal one objective experience? Or what number is required? Or does it depend on what YOU believe?
There are more people in the world who believe in God like me than don't like you. Does that prove you are out on the lunatic fringe?
empirical= derived from or guided by experience or experiment
Edited by petrophysics1, : typo
Edited by petrophysics1, : add P.S.
Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2009 2:10 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Huntard, posted 02-03-2009 2:56 PM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 36 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2009 8:05 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 277 (497338)
02-03-2009 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by subbie
02-03-2009 2:46 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists/Atheists Apply Within
You assumed that I have been in this universe for all of my existance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by subbie, posted 02-03-2009 2:46 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by subbie, posted 02-03-2009 3:52 PM petrophysics1 has replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 277 (497375)
02-03-2009 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by subbie
02-03-2009 3:52 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists/Atheists Apply Within
You have assumed I have only existed for this lifetime, and have as poor a memory as you.
I understand your experience tells you that, but mine does not.
Ever meet someone who has more experience than you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by subbie, posted 02-03-2009 3:52 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by subbie, posted 02-04-2009 12:16 AM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
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