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Author
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Topic: Free will: an illusion
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 135 of 309 (322221)
06-16-2006 11:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 134 by Heathen
06-16-2006 11:03 AM
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For my part I cannot reconcile an all knowing god with free will. Well, if you throw something like omnipotence in there then god can be all-knowing AND allow free will to exists. He has the power to make the contradiction possible.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 134 by Heathen, posted 06-16-2006 11:03 AM | | Heathen has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Re: Magic hand waving. The answer to everything?
Right so we can just throw out a couple of contradictory premises and hand wave away all the problems it introduces. Yes, when dealing with something as logically rediculous as omni- anything, you're gonna need to do a lot of handwaving.
If you want to just hand wave it away then fine. you just do that.
But if you want any kind of meaningfull discussion, you are gonna need to do a whole lot better otherwise we are all just wasting our time here. Yeah, like you're gonna come up with some new philisophical discovery on the nature of omni-stuff. Meaningful discussions are fine but to argue from incredulity of the coexistance of a few omni-things is hardly anyhting but a waste of time.
To me this just deapens the underlying issue that Omnipotence and Omniscience are absolutely mutually exclusiv. Why are they mutually exclusive? Seems like they are mutually inclusive.
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Re: Magic hand waving. The answer to everything?
God knows with absolute certainty that a certain particle will be in a certain spot at a certain time (and remember, he CANNOT be wrong no matter what, due to omniscience)
Then he make it go somewhere else (remember he can do anything he likes by means of his omnipotence)
Except that now his foreknowledge was wrong. the particle isn't where he knew it would be. It is somewhere else.
But he knew he was going to change it all along. He did know where it was going to be. ABE: I guess you're gonna type that if he knew what he was gonna change it to then he doesn't have the power to change it to something other than that. That's where the hand waving comes in. I give precedence to power over knowledge because power could inlude knowledge. If god is all-powerful, then he can know everything while mainitining his power even if it is a contradiction. Edited by Catholic Scientist, : see ABE
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Re: Magic hand waving. The answer to everything?
Personally I would rather just trash the "future" part of the definition of Omniscience. Whoa, I wasn't expecting that. That's what I do to omniscience too. Knowing everything should be limited to the things that are possible to know. The future doesn't exists so it can't be known, or something like that. I didn't want to argue about that so I didn't reply to your question about if I agreed with your definition of omniscience or not. But, to maintain his omnipotence, I think he as the ability to know the future, he just doesn't know it even though he could. THat way, we are allowed to have free will, he could take it away by knowing the future (and he might do it occasionally) but I think he wants us to have free will. Still though, you can't limit omnipotence from logical contradictions becasue then it becomes something really close to omnipotence but not. And just because it is a contradiction doesn't mean that GOD couldn't do it, especially if he is omnipotent.
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Re: Magic hand waving. The answer to everything?
How about God has the ability to know what will happen in the future based on what is happening right now but that the present is in constant flux such that if he were to use that ability again in 10 minutes time, the outcome could be subtly different?
That sounds pretty good to me. We just can't limit what god is capable of knowing in the sense that he loses any omnipotence.
This could also be extended into the IF.. THEN kind of future knowledge such as IF I do THIS then the outcome will certainly be THAT.
It kind of opens up the possibility of there being alternate futures based on our free will and choices that we make, and that God has the ability to know them all, then as the choices are made, the future coalesces into a narrower field in which futures which would have happened IF a certain choice had been made are no longer viable.
The past would obviously be fixed in stone but the future would be in flux Thats about how I look at it. Think of the horn model for the big bang, or just think of a horn. Way out in the mouth of the horn is all the possibilities of the future and as we get close to the present the number of possibilities decreases until the present happens and there is only one possibility. Then it happens and is forever locked as a part of the past while the present continue to move forward and limit the possibilities of the future. The present is a point on the horn and can be quantified down to the smallest increment of time so that it is constantly happening and never stops moving forward. Actually, to me it seems like the present is fixed and the future moves through it in to the past but I can also see it as the past and future being fixed and the present moving through them. I dunno.
Using this kind of definition of reality, it may be possible to reconcile Omniscience with Omnipotence. And like my first reply, it seems to make them mutually inclusive. Of course, its all in how you look at it.
I still have a big problem with prophecy though, but then again maybe prophecy just looks into certain branches of the future and through the direct or indirect actions of God (and possibly other players) the threads of reality are carefully manipulated to bring about the correct circumstances for the prophecy to be fulfilled. Well, if god wanted some prophecy to be fulfilled, he could just use his omnipotence to completely control however many aspects of the future that he needed to make the prophecy unfold. For me, its not really about what he is capable of knowing or not.
How does that sound to you? It sounds a lot like I look at omniscience and omnipotence. I usually just wave my hand though...
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 178 of 309 (323190)
06-19-2006 10:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 166 by jar
06-16-2006 2:30 PM
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Re: Magic hand waving. The answer to everything?
The problem I have with that is how do you tell the difference between a God who has the ability of foreknowledge but doesn't use it and one who does not have the ability at all? You can't.
If we add in an additional selective layer, God uses his ability of foreknowledge selectively, in some cases he uses it, in others he does not, it only makes God even more capricious. Well then you'll just have to have faith in her master plan, if you think she has one. Why would you have a problem with her being capricious anyways?
The problem faced by Paul Atreides. I saw the Dune movie one time. How did Paul face this problem?
But he at least acknowledged his own cruelity. Do you think god would be cruel if she was capricious?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 166 by jar, posted 06-16-2006 2:30 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 181 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-19-2006 10:08 AM | | New Cat's Eye has not replied | | | Message 185 by jar, posted 06-19-2006 10:27 AM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Re: Magic hand waving. The answer to everything?
It does take away the concept of God being outside of time because it would mean the the future is still in flux even to him. he may well see all of time but as probable paths rather than certainties. He would know that a certain event will certainly happen along a specific timeline but that timeline may be one of many that have equal probablity. I don't think god is really outside of time. I think, with his omnipotence, he is capable of being outside of time, but by default he is not.
I guess it could be argued that if he knows which timeline would become reality then we are back to square one but maybe it could be argued that since (at the time of knowing) all the timelines are equally real so it doesn't matter. I think god wants us to have free will and I think he allows us to have free will. Being omniscient and omnipotent, he could totally determine everything and we would be living without free will. But I don't think god does this, I think he allows us to have free will by keeping the future open to other possibilities and not exercising his ability to control everything. Why would he want a bunch of robots running around down here when he could have a bunch of people? Saying that free will is what makes us people and not robots. I think people make much better pets that robots....lol. [/joking around] Am I making any kind of sense here or am I just rambling? You make plenty of sense to me.
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Re: Magic hand waving. The answer to everything?
However what does this say for the free will of the people involved in the prohecy?
Do they really have a choice to NOT fulfil it if God is using his omnipotence to force them to? I don't look at free will as an all or none thing. God might have to remove some of the freedom of someone's will in order to have a prophecy fullfilled, because he wants it to happen bad enough.
It sounds a lot like I look at omniscience and omnipotence. I usually just wave my hand though...
That's probably the best way. What say we just stick with it eh? 
Sure. Like I typed earlier, its not like were gonna stumble upon some great realization about omni-stuff. Its all opinions and personal preference, and its really easy to start the hand waving when talking about omnipotence.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 179 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-19-2006 10:05 AM | | PurpleYouko has not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 192 of 309 (323305)
06-19-2006 2:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 190 by Heathen
06-19-2006 2:00 PM
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I replied to you in Message 135, and you can follow the discssion I had with PY there which elaborates and clarifies, but I'd still like to read a response from you, if you would.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 190 by Heathen, posted 06-19-2006 2:00 PM | | Heathen has not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 213 of 309 (323422)
06-19-2006 5:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 185 by jar
06-19-2006 10:27 AM
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God's capriciousness
Do you think god would be cruel if she was capricious?
Yes in the sense of arbitrary and capricious. If GOD is capricious, then there really are no rules, no right and wrong, no freewill and no standards. quote:
capricious: Characterized by or subject to whim; impulsive and unpredictable. See Synonyms at arbitrary.
quote:
arbitrary: Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference Established by a court or judge rather than by a specific law or statute. Not limited by law; despotic.
Do you think god would be cruel if she was capricious?
Yes in the sense of arbitrary and capricious.
What about capricious but not arbitrary? I see they are synonomous but arbitrary seems to have an additional condition of not by neccessity , reason or principle. God could be ”selectively omniscient’ based on necessity and reason and not be arbitrary about it. Why do you think that if god has the ability but chooses to or not to use it, then she is capricious?
If GOD is capricious, then there really are no rules, no right and wrong, no freewill and no standards. I don't really see why but if you don't feel like typing it out, no problem.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 185 by jar, posted 06-19-2006 10:27 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 220 by jar, posted 06-19-2006 6:13 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 214 of 309 (323423)
06-19-2006 5:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 211 by Heathen
06-19-2006 5:20 PM
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Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
Either... free will is an illusion or god is not all knowing. make your choice.
God is not all knowing (according to your definition). By another definition, God is all knowing and we have free will. yeah?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 211 by Heathen, posted 06-19-2006 5:20 PM | | Heathen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 215 by Heathen, posted 06-19-2006 5:50 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 227 of 309 (323823)
06-20-2006 10:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 215 by Heathen
06-19-2006 5:50 PM
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Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
CS writes: By another definition, God is all knowing and we have free will.
can you explain how you arrive at this definfition, and how the contradiction is overcome? rather than just asserting it.
I already did, its posted on this thread. Read the posts, that you didn't reply too, between me and PY and reply to those. Start here on Message 135 and read PY's replies to me and mine to them. You could reply to my last post with points form each post to avoid posting multiple times and running out of thread room. Thanks.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 215 by Heathen, posted 06-19-2006 5:50 PM | | Heathen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 228 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 11:22 AM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 229 of 309 (323833)
06-20-2006 11:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 228 by Heathen
06-20-2006 11:22 AM
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Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
I'm not sure I can subscribe to PY's and your re-definition of omnicience No problem. I just wouldn't call it a "re-definition". The definition is simple yet complex.
quote:
omniscience: Having total knowledge; knowing everything
In knowing everything, can you know the unknowable? Does total knowledge include things that cannot be known? Enter the opinions on the definition of omniscience. Yours and mine differ, but in our interpretation of what it actually means, I'm not re-defining it.
To me this is simply not omniscience, if there is any uncertainty, or any point at which everything is not known or anything is unknown, then we do not have omniscience. I don't hold such a strong opinion on the definition of omniscience. I don't think the future is knowable in the sense described above (that there is absolutely no uncertainty). But, if god is omnipotent, then they must have the ability to know the future in the sense described above. When god exercises this ability, our free will (fractionally or totally) is removed.
The particular model of eternity this thread was aimed at was ianos view of eternity as a book, where the omniscient god can flick the pages in any direction at any time and see what was, what is and what will be. With that model, we do not have free will.
But omniscience based upon extrapolation from what is known, to a 'possible' outcome does not equate to true omniscience to me. and It is not the definition of omniscience I am argueing against in this thread.
Ok. If you ever start a thread on what omniscience really means or includes, then I'll post in it. Like I typed earlier,
quote:
Using your(or iano's) defintion of omniscience, if we have free will then God is not all-knowing and if god is all-knowing then we don't have free will.
If I had to pick one or the other then I'd say that I have free will and god is not all-knowing. But I suscribe to a different definition of omniscience, and believe that god is all-knowing and I have free will. I guess it is basically because I think I have free will and I wouldn't put limits on god's abilities. Although, you could be right that I am under the illusion that I have free will, I just don't believe that to be the case.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 228 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 11:22 AM | | Heathen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 231 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 12:07 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 230 of 309 (323842)
06-20-2006 11:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 220 by jar
06-19-2006 6:13 PM
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Re: God's capriciousness
Well, that would mean that any given moment, any given act, might or might not be subject to freewill. Freewill then becomes more or less a crapshoot, dependent on whether GOD has used Her ability of foreknowledge regarding that particular incident. Yeah, but god could be making those dicisions to exercise her ability based on some criteria and not just a whim.
Because you have absolutely no idea of what GOD's perspective or reaction will be under any given set of circumstances or whether you are making choices or GOD has stepped in and removed freewill in this particular instance.
You would have no idea which acts were free and which were predetermined, but god would and could be basing it on good reasons. It doesn't have to include the randomness.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 220 by jar, posted 06-19-2006 6:13 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 233 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 12:12 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 235 of 309 (323851)
06-20-2006 12:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 231 by Heathen
06-20-2006 12:07 PM
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Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
If you know everything then nothing is unknowable. I don't think that knowing everything includes knowing things that cannot be known. I think that somethings are unknowable, like, the future.
I think I see what you're getting at, are you suggesting that God could choose not to know something? Yes, except the opposite. God doesn't know the future because it is unknwable, but, being all-powerful, God could choose to know the future if he disired. Not that he knows the future until he decides to not know it.
is he then truely all-knowing? to me this is not omniscience. I would say that it is truely all-knowing because I don't think knowing everything includes knowing the future.
If I tell you that I know what happens in a movie... A movie is a bad analogy becuase its outcome is predetermined. The characters in the story do not have free will.
hence this thread. Of course, I didn't read the OP and didn't see that you didn't want us to post what I originally posted, so... "My bad." But yeah, if it is all predetermined then we don't have free will. What's so hard about that?
catholic scientist writes: If I had to pick one or the other then I'd say that I have free will and god is not all-knowing. But I suscribe to a different definition of omniscience, and believe that god is all-knowing and I have free will.
well then it's not really omniscience then is it? No, not accordind to your interpretation of the definition.
Omniscience means awareness of everything... Everything with no conditions placed upon it... I agree.
Just straight forward omniscience.. knowledge or awareness of everything, everywhere, at anytime. Aaah, but you just added some conditions, didn't you? I leave the 'anytime' condition out of it and consider the future unknowable. I have no conflict with omniscience and free will.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 231 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2006 12:07 PM | | Heathen has replied |
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