Free will: an illusion

Hi Jar! I've been wanting to bring up a topic related to this for ages. I thought in your mind everyone was saved? Can you lose this salvation? OK, I'm going to spin this off to a new thread... will you join me?

So you would also conclude that a universe that allows closed-timelike-curves (backwards time-travel) also removes the possibility of free-will, as it would obviously introduce foreknowledge?

Jumping in eleventh hour here...Why?If tomorrow I see you jump in a lake, have I removed your free will?How about if I then travel back to today throgh a convenient wormhole, have I removed your free-will?How about if I then tell you that tomorrow you will jump in the lake?In any of these scenarios, have I removed your free-will? (assuming it was there to begin with) Can God's "knowing" have such a damning effect on our free-will, even if he doesn't tell us what we are going to do? Note, I am only interested in God's knowing at this point. Imagine God isn't the creator, but just has omniscience...Now, is your argument more to do with God being creator AND being omniscient that causes the problem?Edited by cavediver, : Change of subtitleEdited by cavediver, : Correct spelling in new subtitle

But my point is, can I take away your free-will simply by knowing what is going to happen? Either by time-travel, or prescience, or whetever. Time-travel at least is a theoretical possibility (although probably a practical impossibility).

Exactly. All this talk of God's omniscience removing free-will is daft. General Relativity does a much better job...The universe as far as we understand it to this day is deterministic. It is very hard to imagine any such thing as free-will in such a universe. In my mind, if free-will exists, it is "super-natural" in origin, something added to the universe's natural law. I guess in this respect I hold similar views to Iano's. Personally, given many of the "choices" I have made, I'm quite happy with free-will not existing, in which case I am just along for the ride

Then the natural universe is not compatible with free-will according to General Relatvity.It has nothing to do with God.

Sorry Ian, meant to reply last night... In a way, yes, but it's not the way I would put it. From the persepctive of GR, th universe just is... a big static unchanging 4 dimensional object, containing all past and future times. You could just as well say that the condition that I am typing this now ensures the conditions in the early universe... or those on the other side of the universe "now". The universe is a big consistent whole.At least, that is the view from GR. But it's not been wrong yet I thought you knew... I've been saved (at 14), baptised in water, by the Spirit, exercised Gifts, fallen away, come back, fallen away, etc. I attend a large Pentecostal-derived family church, and these days I'm in my heretical gnostic post-evangelical phase I'm also probably the only non-creationist in a congregation of 500+

I've never bought this. Let's say I know everything. So you say the future is pre-determined. Fine. But by whom or by what? Does my ability to know the future imply a fully deterministic universe where there is no free-will? Or does it imply that there is a creator God who pre-determined everything? Something has to do the pre-determining... Personally I do not see that this omniscience does necessarily remove free will, but then I have a much more relaxed view of time given my profession

Ok, yes I can agree with this. This is the picture we get from General Relativity and precisely why God HAS to know the future/be outisde of time, becasue time and the future are both just elements of the created universe. If God is not omniscient, then He's not quite as up there as Einstein AbsolutelyHowever, it is possible we live in a many-world branching type of existence, in which case God's omniscience elevates to a differnt order of magnitude! I have often wondered whether conciousness and free-will actually derive from a smearing over several finely related existences, with each individual existence being purely deterministic.

Pretty much my view of things when I'm in a "free-will exists" type of mood Nice bit of 4d thinking there... like it

I liked Iano's picture here, and often think like this. My point in defense of free-will in this scenario is why cannot we be the joint-authors of the book? My future choices are indeed set. But they are set by me. My future self exists just as much as I today exist and as much as I my past self exists.

So who did decide your actions?(how long before someone notices What's the most a thread has gone beyond 300? Sounds like a challenge...)Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

And if there is no God? Say I have good enough omniscience from my time-travelling...(I'd be please with 310)Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.