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Author Topic:   Free will: an illusion
iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 6 of 309 (321585)
06-14-2006 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Heathen
06-14-2006 7:08 PM


Re: Where should this go?
I'm not in a hurry Crevo. You are looking for "decent" answers and so will I be when you object to them. That takes time. I'm not out to win a debate. Is souls I'm out to win. If your prepared to risk that then you have nothing to fear from me. It'll be a combat free zone (in the sense of combat = war)

It'll have to be a great debate though. I'm not in the mood for a pile on. It would distract us both.

Ask Admin to move it if your up for it

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 7:08 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 8:33 PM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 13 of 309 (321606)
06-14-2006 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Heathen
06-14-2006 8:33 PM


Re: Where should this go?
It wouldn't be me doing the converting. I'd just be answering your questions. But in listening to them you run the risk.

Its not a big deal to answer but not in an open forum. A topic like this would just get too messy.

It's probably too late for this thread now its gotten going. Some other time then


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 8:33 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 9:55 PM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 70 of 309 (321745)
06-15-2006 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Heathen
06-14-2006 9:55 PM


Re: Where should this go?
I'm afraid the evangelist/argumentitive git in me would make that very difficult. I've tried that before and failed. No reason to suppose otherwise here. I have after all, predicted that this thread would become what it has become. Er...busy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 9:55 PM Heathen has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 76 of 309 (321815)
06-15-2006 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Heathen
06-15-2006 10:36 AM


We consider making a decision without information to be free will

This is not my position Crevo. By all means carry on with the assumption, but please remove the reference to it being my position if you intend to do so. Its probably better to remove reference to my position altogether seeing as I am not partaking in the thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 10:36 AM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 11:18 AM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 80 of 309 (321877)
06-15-2006 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Heathen
06-15-2006 11:18 AM


apologies.. done

No apologies necessary. Thanks

.. and explain your position on these three points? Come on... you know you want to...

Its less a question of wanting to and more a question of not being able to. You said:

1) Free will is an illusion, since God knows what will happen, what choices we will make.

Patently if free will is an illusion then the idea that there are choices to be made is an illusion too. God would know what will happen alright and what we are going to do - not choose to do. If not 'choose to do' then you had to write what you had to write and I am writing what I have to write.

It seems to me that would be no 'me', no 'position', nothing to 'explain' - just instinctual (read programmed) machines doing what programmed machines do. Programmed machines cannot explain anything. They are unable

Not that it seems to be holding anyone back here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 11:18 AM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:04 PM iano has responded
 Message 101 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-15-2006 3:50 PM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 83 of 309 (321884)
06-15-2006 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Heathen
06-15-2006 12:59 PM


Re: My 2 cents worth
we make the 'decision' whether or not to take him up on his offer.

I'm afraid your off-target again Crevo. This is not my positon either.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 12:59 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:21 PM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 84 of 309 (321888)
06-15-2006 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Heathen
06-15-2006 1:04 PM


Your leaping ahead Crevo. If a machine then you cannot have an "opinion" or a "thought" or "explain" or any of the other things "you" are taking for granted here. You just said what the programme spat out. It has no worth as such. Gobbeldymook :)

Only if free will isn't an illusion can you even begin to talk about the boundaries in which that free will might operate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:04 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:24 PM iano has responded
 Message 102 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-15-2006 3:56 PM iano has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 89 of 309 (321901)
06-15-2006 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Heathen
06-15-2006 1:21 PM


Re: My 2 cents worth
So we do "choose" to reject...if we don't choose to reject our choice is to accept...

I don't hold so. Of course again, you may conclude that that must be the case - but without referring to it as being my positon. For it is not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:21 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 2:01 PM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 92 of 309 (321918)
06-15-2006 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Heathen
06-15-2006 1:24 PM


Which is exactly why your worldview makes no sense to me..
In the absence of an all knowing-creator god however.. we do have true free will.

If there is no creator God then you are a biological machine and free will is an illusion. A machine deciding for itself that it has free will is its perogative. But there is no reason to trust the machinations of such an entity. It is churning out notions it must churn out. Discussion is pointless as I pointed out

If, on the other hand we are created and free-will is rendered an illusion by Gods all-knowing then we are created biological machines and discussion is pointless here too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:24 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 2:11 PM iano has responded
 Message 95 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 06-15-2006 2:14 PM iano has not yet responded
 Message 103 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-15-2006 4:07 PM iano has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 93 of 309 (321926)
06-15-2006 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Heathen
06-15-2006 2:01 PM


Re: My 2 cents worth
First we must decide whether we have free will or not (free will subject to boundaries and influence perhaps - but free will all the same). I don't discuss with machines.

Furthermore, an acceptance of our having true free will (confined as above, perhaps) necessitates there being a creator God. Not necessarily all knowing (I haven't thought that far ahead), but if all-knowing, that factor cannot make our free will an illusion for the reasons already stated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 2:01 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 2:18 PM iano has not yet responded
 Message 104 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-15-2006 4:09 PM iano has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 98 of 309 (321935)
06-15-2006 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Heathen
06-15-2006 2:11 PM


If anyone does refute it then you can present their argument without quoting them. I have accepted your offer to ignore other posters in this thread. When you have a refutation or decide you have a true free will let me know.

Right now, I'm off to worship practice

Later Mook


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 2:11 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 2:28 PM iano has responded
 Message 105 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-15-2006 4:19 PM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 106 of 309 (321985)
06-15-2006 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by PurpleYouko
06-15-2006 4:19 PM


I was just threading water until you got here.

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 Message 105 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-15-2006 4:19 PM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 107 of 309 (322001)
06-15-2006 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Heathen
06-15-2006 2:28 PM


ride safe

Chicken strips on the Fazers back tyre down to about 8mm wide at this point!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 2:28 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 6:02 PM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 109 of 309 (322012)
06-15-2006 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by PurpleYouko
06-15-2006 3:50 PM


Re: Absolutely right
Now you are getting it. If we don't have free will (As implied by the existence of an omniscient God) then we are nothing more than characters in a great big book.

And the characters will arrive at whatever conclusions the story dictates. If they 'think', that is because the story says they think. They don't actually. No more that the characters in the novel you are reading at the moment 'think'. If they arrive at the 'conclusion' that the universe is indeterministic then that doesn't mean it is. They arrived there because the story says they would arrive there. If they 'suggest' that God could have made them possess virtual free-will by means of quantum indeterminism then that too is inevitable in the story. It doesn't mean that is the case. It would mean I am writing this because the story says I do and you will respond because the story says so too.

A very intricately woven story, but a story all the same.

Discussion is pointless because there is no such thing as discussion. And my halting the discussion with you now until such time as you figure a way out of this dilema is part of that story.

(Hint: free will!)

{ABE} have a read of the post below to Crevo. It shows one way out of this dilema. I don't suspect there are any others

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


NB: I'M RESPONDING TO ONLY CREVO AND PY IN THIS THREAD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-15-2006 3:50 PM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-16-2006 8:42 AM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 110 of 309 (322024)
06-15-2006 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Heathen
06-15-2006 6:02 PM


Suspending Disbelief
8mm??? aren't you turning corners at all? :b

The Fazer thou isn't like the 6. Its a heavy beast and holds its weight up high too. You get the sense that it stepping out will be a less-than-recoverable affair - not like the lightweight kid brother.

Not that it matters much. It pulls so strong everywhere in the rev range you don't have to hockey it around corners to keep up.

Any resolution of the dilema?

Although you might see all your points in the OP as of equal merit, this is not the case. Certain assumptions must be made to understand what free will is and the boundaries and contraints it is under. This involves the principle of 'suspending disbelief'

Say someone who was an unbeliever wanted to find out about what the Gospel of John was saying about Jesus. An unbelieving theologian for example. What he would do is 'suspend disbelief' and work through what was being said. What he wouldn't do is pause at Jesus' first miracle and say "miracles are impossible" and walk away. He would assume miracles are possible and would progress on to find out what purpose the miracle had in the jigsaw picture he was trying to build up. As soon as he finishes his study, he reverts to normal, turns off the "suspend disbelief" and goes and watches the footie

Similarily one must make certain assumptions in order to progress here. You easily accept that suspending disbelief for the duration of our 'study' involves accepting that a creator God exists. If you are discussing with a person of my persuasion and want to find out about my view then you need to suspend disbelief and accept that God to be all knowing - which you seem to have done.

And, as our current impasse indicates you must also accept that his all knowing doesn't mean your free will is an illusion. For if you don't accept that, but accept the other two then we hit an impasse where were God exists, is all knowing - but we are machines. No further discussion about free will is possible because 'we' don't exist at all to 'discuss'.

This prevents discussion about the boundaries in which free will operates and the influences free will is under - the issues which might have some relevance to your OP questions 2) and 3)

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


NB: I'm responding only to Crevo and PY in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 6:02 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Asgara, posted 06-15-2006 7:32 PM iano has responded
 Message 113 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 8:59 PM iano has responded

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