Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8945 total)
38 online now:
Coragyps, DrJones*, dwise1, jar, PaulK, RAZD, ringo, Theodoric (8 members, 30 visitors)
Newest Member: ski zawaski
Upcoming Birthdays: ONESOlivia, perfect
Post Volume: Total: 865,486 Year: 20,522/19,786 Month: 919/2,023 Week: 427/392 Day: 43/74 Hour: 4/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Free will: an illusion
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 286 of 309 (324338)
06-21-2006 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by iano
06-21-2006 10:16 AM


Re: Now I affirm it, now I don't
Not if your are assuming the assumption and affirming the conclusion. You must (as you are doing) suspend affirming the conclusion of Q.1 in order to comment using logic and reason etc. This means the conclusion cannot actually in fact be. If it were then you couldn't step outside it to comment.

Don't be silly. Given the affirmative answer then even attempting to step outside of the question is a pre-determined action over which i have no control.

And I really have no issue with the sub conclusions if they follow in a logical path. I am not concerning myself with God's motivations. I can't know them anyway so why bother/ beside which the thoughts and questions would not trully be my own anyway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 10:16 AM iano has not yet responded

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 287 of 309 (324344)
06-21-2006 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Codegate
06-21-2006 10:29 AM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
That is quite omniscient in my opinion.

Isn't that a bit like being "quite" pregnant?
he either knows everything, past future, present or he doesn't.

The exception is, because God gave us the gift of 'free will' he is unable to know which of those paths we will follow

Sounds like you and catholic Scientist think the same way. Me too to some degree. The point is though that thepremises for this thread are to ask the question based on the definition that Omniscience mean ABSOLUTE omniscience. No limits. He knows the future and everything in it.
I'm not claiming that is the way it is in reality.
I am just exploring the ramifications if it were true.

Perhaps because God is also omnipotent he decided to permanently remove his ability to know which choice we would make.

Nice :)
He uses his omnipotence to remove his own omniscience. ;)
Either way this God no longer fits the premise for this thread so let's forget about him.
The only God i am interested in is truly and 100% omniscient.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Codegate, posted 06-21-2006 10:29 AM Codegate has not yet responded

cavediver
Member (Idle past 1958 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 288 of 309 (324345)
06-21-2006 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by PurpleYouko
06-21-2006 10:45 AM


Re: Not pre-determined just determined
If God knows all then it must be possible to know all. Therefore the future is pre-determined

I've never bought this. Let's say I know everything. So you say the future is pre-determined. Fine. But by whom or by what? Does my ability to know the future imply a fully deterministic universe where there is no free-will? Or does it imply that there is a creator God who pre-determined everything? Something has to do the pre-determining... Personally I do not see that this omniscience does necessarily remove free will, but then I have a much more relaxed view of time given my profession :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-21-2006 10:45 AM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-21-2006 11:11 AM cavediver has responded

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 289 of 309 (324347)
06-21-2006 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by New Cat's Eye
06-21-2006 10:33 AM


Re: make a choice free will or All knowing God
No free will.

That we don't really have free will and it seems like we do, the OP is correct in that it could be called an illusion.

That or god isn't omniscient, because it sure does seem like I have free will.

My original post in this thread was without reading the OP and really only disagree with the interpretation of the definition of omniscience.

So how does prophecy work then?

Omnipotence.


ROFLMAO
You crack me up.
God Forces his prophecies to come true.
I love it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 10:33 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 11:13 AM PurpleYouko has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 290 of 309 (324348)
06-21-2006 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by PurpleYouko
06-21-2006 10:30 AM


Re: Que Sera, Sera
Maybe the problem lies in the understanding of the word foreknowing. If one takes the view that choices haven't been made yet by us but God can see into the future and thus foreknow then you could well have a point. But is that the only way to picture it?

God is eternal - and that (possibly means) that there is no past, present and future for him. Time wouldn't elapse for him as it does for us.

God would look at every moment of our lives as still frames on a piece of film. He knows what our choice is not because he is looking into the future but because he is looking at the present. Him looking at the present doesn't mean we weren't the ones exposing each frame on the film. We exposed, are exposing, will expose each frame and are free to do so. God, in eternity simply observes each frame that we have already exposed.

All our decisions are already made in eternity. We just haven't made them yet in time. But they are our decisions whenever it is they get made. It doesn't matter which decisions we do make. That will just affect a film in the making (in time) which is already made (in eternity)

A time vs eternity issue. Not lack of free will

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : insert (possibly means)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-21-2006 10:30 AM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-21-2006 11:22 AM iano has responded
 Message 295 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2006 11:25 AM iano has not yet responded
 Message 296 by Heathen, posted 06-21-2006 11:26 AM iano has responded

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 291 of 309 (324352)
06-21-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by cavediver
06-21-2006 11:03 AM


Re: Not pre-determined just determined
Personally I do not see that this omniscience does necessarily remove free will

No it doesn't. You are misunderstanding my point.
I'm not saying that omniscience causes the loss of free will.

What I am saying is that it is not possible to be omniscient (ie. know the future) unless the future is already in a state of predeterminism. You can't infallibly know it to be true if it ain't true right?

That means that the possible existance of Omniscience is a symptom, not a cause.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2006 11:03 AM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2006 11:23 AM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 292 of 309 (324353)
06-21-2006 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by PurpleYouko
06-21-2006 11:06 AM


ROFLMAO
You crack me up.
God Forces his prophecies to come true.
I love it.

It works though, yeah?

Why is it so humorous?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-21-2006 11:06 AM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-21-2006 11:37 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 293 of 309 (324361)
06-21-2006 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by iano
06-21-2006 11:06 AM


Re: Que Sera, Sera
Maybe the problem lies in the understanding of the word foreknowing. If one takes the view that choices haven't been made yet by us but God can see into the future and thus foreknow then you could well have a point. But is that the only way to picture it?

Good you finally understand what I have been saying.
OK so what other way is there to look at it?

God is eternal - and that means that there is no past, present and future for him. Time doesn't elapse for him as it does for us.

Sounds exactly like what cavediver stated earlier.
All 4 dimensional space already exists and can be viewed from God's unique perspective of being "outside" it all.

God would look at every moment of our lives as still frames on a piece of film. He knows what our choice is not because he is looking into the future but because he is looking at the present. Him looking at the present doesn't mean we weren't the ones exposing each frame on the film. We exposed, are exposing, will expose each frame and are free to do so. God, in eternity simply observes each frame that we have already exposed.

Except that in this scenario, from outside of time, all the frames would already exist. They would be stationary. From outside of time, could any change within time even be meaningfull or possible.

All our decisions are already made in eternity. We just haven't made them yet in time.

Therefore we cannot choose to make any decision other than the one that is written in eternity. This is the most absolute definition of determinism that I have ever seen.
We just haven't made them yet in time. But they are our decisions whenever it is they get made. It doesn't matter which decisions we do make. That will just affect a film in the making (in time) which is already made (in eternity)

So our choices are fixed. The film has been made and viewed many times (by anyone outside of time such as God and maybe his angels)

I don't see one single shred of free will in this scenario. It is in fact precisely the scenario that I have been putting forward throughout this entire thread.

We are characters in a book that has already been written. A movie that is already made. We can't change one single thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 11:06 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by cavediver, posted 06-21-2006 11:29 AM PurpleYouko has not yet responded
 Message 298 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 11:30 AM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

cavediver
Member (Idle past 1958 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 294 of 309 (324362)
06-21-2006 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by PurpleYouko
06-21-2006 11:11 AM


Re: Not pre-determined just determined
What I am saying is that it is not possible to be omniscient (ie. know the future) unless the future is already in a state of predeterminism

Ok, yes I can agree with this. This is the picture we get from General Relativity and precisely why God HAS to know the future/be outisde of time, becasue time and the future are both just elements of the created universe. If God is not omniscient, then He's not quite as up there as Einstein ;)

That means that the possible existance of Omniscience is a symptom, not a cause.

Absolutely

However, it is possible we live in a many-world branching type of existence, in which case God's omniscience elevates to a differnt order of magnitude! I have often wondered whether conciousness and free-will actually derive from a smearing over several finely related existences, with each individual existence being purely deterministic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-21-2006 11:11 AM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

cavediver
Member (Idle past 1958 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 295 of 309 (324364)
06-21-2006 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by iano
06-21-2006 11:06 AM


Re: Que Sera, Sera
Pretty much my view of things when I'm in a "free-will exists" type of mood :) Nice bit of 4d thinking there... like it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 11:06 AM iano has not yet responded

Heathen
Member
Posts: 1063
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 296 of 309 (324366)
06-21-2006 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by iano
06-21-2006 11:06 AM


Re: Que Sera, Sera
iano writes:

If one takes the view that choices haven't been made yet by us but God can see into the future and thus foreknow then you could well have a point. But is that the only way to picture it?


so... god isn't "all Knowing"?

iano writes:

God would look at every moment of our lives as still frames on a piece of film


wow Eternity.. the motion picture... they made a film of the book eh?

iano writes:

All our decisions are already made in eternity


and God can see them? or is aware of them?

iano writes:

But they are our decisions whenever it is they get made.

but if the outcome is known before 'we' make these decisions... what hope have we of influencing them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 11:06 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 11:33 AM Heathen has not yet responded

cavediver
Member (Idle past 1958 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 297 of 309 (324369)
06-21-2006 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by PurpleYouko
06-21-2006 11:22 AM


Re: Que Sera, Sera
We are characters in a book that has already been written. A movie that is already made. We can't change one single thing.

I liked Iano's picture here, and often think like this. My point in defense of free-will in this scenario is why cannot we be the joint-authors of the book? My future choices are indeed set. But they are set by me. My future self exists just as much as I today exist and as much as I my past self exists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-21-2006 11:22 AM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

iano
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 298 of 309 (324370)
06-21-2006 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by PurpleYouko
06-21-2006 11:22 AM


Re: Que Sera, Sera
We are characters in a book that has already been written. A movie that is already made. We can't change one single thing.

I don't see the necessity for determinism. You are forcing the two concepts time/eternity into one.

You are failing to keep separate the time and eternal dimensions in your post. You are a character in a book that is being written by you (via your choices) in time. The book is already written in eternity. You are free to write the book any way you like but whichever way you do that is the book that God is viewing. No matter which way you WILL chose to write it, that is the book he IS viewing

His being able to view the whole completed book (perpetual present in eternity) doesn't mean you cannot write it anyway you like (future in time)

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-21-2006 11:22 AM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Heathen, posted 06-21-2006 12:46 PM iano has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 299 of 309 (324372)
06-21-2006 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by Heathen
06-21-2006 11:26 AM


Re: Que Sera, Sera
See message 298. Time for the fat lady to sing-a-ling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Heathen, posted 06-21-2006 11:26 AM Heathen has not yet responded

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 300 of 309 (324373)
06-21-2006 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by New Cat's Eye
06-21-2006 11:13 AM


Humor is in the eye of the beholder
It works though, yeah?

Why is it so humorous?


Sure it works.

It just conjours up all kinds of funny images to me.

God: "And I say unto thee, Bob, that on the morrow ye shall certainly jump into the lake over there."
Bob; "Uhh.. Don't think so God. I'm visiting my in-laws in Kansas city. The wife and I are leaving tonight"
God: "We'll see." grins in a very un-godlike way.

next day. Bob is mowing his Mother-in-law's back yard when suddenly a chuffing great lake appears in front of him and the deck chair in which his wife had been sitting is now quickly sinking in the water.
Bob immediately jumps in to save his wife.

God: (from behind a passing cloud) "Gotcha!!!"
Bob: "Damn it God. That's cheating."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 11:13 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 11:43 AM PurpleYouko has responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019