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Author Topic:   Commonality of Worldwide Myths
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 50 (242338)
09-11-2005 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by nwr
09-11-2005 7:34 PM


Re: Common language
That may or may not be true, but the other similar characteristic I'd point to would be innate curiosity. Wouldn't that make multiple independant language invention events even more likely?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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nwr
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Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 32 of 50 (242339)
09-11-2005 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
09-11-2005 7:38 PM


Re: Common language
I agree that there were probably multiple independent language inventions, as well as some language passed along and evolved. And then there is the mixing of languages. It gets complicated.

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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 33 of 50 (242341)
09-11-2005 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
09-11-2005 7:27 PM


Re: Common language
Let's make this easy; here's some links to Wikipedia articles:
Historical Linguistics - includs the study of language origins and tracing the historical relations between languages.
Creole languages - languages that are created naturally by next generation learners of cultures working with pidgins; pidgins are communication systems developed between adult populations who do not share a common language
Nicaraguan Sign Language - a sign language that developed in isolation among a deaf community of children.
Maybe that helps get you started...

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 34 of 50 (242356)
09-11-2005 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by CK
09-11-2005 6:01 PM


Re: Common language
1337!

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 35 of 50 (242370)
09-11-2005 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
09-11-2005 7:27 PM


Re: Common language
If I remember my lost article correctly there could have been 3 or 4 "original" dialects, ways of speaking so different that they point to independent formation. Certainly the "click" languages fall in this category, and then there are the musical elements of chinese that change the meanings of words that seems similar to western ears.
But by and large there is evidence of a tree of development that matches the {cultural\ethnic\racial} heritage -- including cross-fertilizations.
ben's wikipedia link in Message 33 gives a good overview of the field the lost article was in.

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ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5161 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 36 of 50 (242451)
09-12-2005 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
09-08-2005 1:14 AM


Depends if there is true simultaneous and isolated development of the same concepts or (more likely, with the level of trade that has gone on around the world for far longer than is commonly held) that there has been a greater deal of cross-pollination than people would at first expect.
After all isn’t our word ”dragon’ derived from the Chinese/Japanese word? Isn’t the more traditional European word ”Wyrm’?
On that note don’t Chinese/Japanese Dragons tend to be more celestial creatures rather than the Flesh, bone and Winged monstrosities of European folk tales?
On the whole, a lot of the supposed commonalties simply aren’t there. They arise mainly through making glancing comparisons from surface impressions and not the actual understanding of the myths and messages. It’s like confusing Mayonnaise and Salad-Cream: at a glance they seem the same but are very different.
The point I’m making is, after all the many hundreds of years that man has been trading with the nations of the world people would have told stories, and people from other places would say hey that’s a little like our story of . .. and so there is opportunity for both versions become a little altered from their encounter. Over the years the fact that this cross-pollination happened gets forgotten and people marvel at how similar the stories really are.
Anyway, pushing the possible contamination of the original stories aside, we would also have to bring “Steam Engine Time” to the table. (see Science of the Discworld III) this is the notion that sometimes it is simply an Idea/concept’s time to be. When this happens then lot’s of people will be having similar thoughts and idea’s at the same time.. You see this in the movies and games and those kind of outlets for human creativity. Suddenly out of nowhere people with think Hey what we need is a good movie set on the ocean in period boats. So you get Pirates of the Caribbean and Master and Commander. I’m sure there were others out there in other countries and different media but you get the idea.
I’m in the Games industry and the number of times I’ve thought of a great idea for a game and then discover the next week that someone else has begun work on a very similar idea. So if it happens that frequently in such a narrow field then it should be no surprise that the same flavours and themes crop up in disparate ancient mythology. It’s simply how the human mind is wired. It creates similar solutions to similar problems no matter where you are or who you are.
But finally as with most comparisons we only notice the close similarities and go that’s odd. We fail to register the thousands of stories that don’t match up.

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 37 of 50 (242455)
09-12-2005 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by ohnhai
09-12-2005 10:38 AM


Couldn't agree more
On the whole, a lot of the supposed commonalties simply aren’t there.
Couldn't agree more. And what is there is explainable.
we would also have to bring “Steam Engine Time” to the table. (see Science of the Discworld III)
Rather than site "Discworld" here, look to Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, a ground breaking work in which he describes paradigmatic shift in great detail. It's essentially the same concept, but explains why this sort of thing happens. (fair warning - VERY DRY reading).

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 38 of 50 (242472)
09-12-2005 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by ohnhai
09-12-2005 10:38 AM


quote:
After all isn’t our word ”dragon’ derived from the Chinese/Japanese word? Isn’t the more traditional European word ”Wyrm’?
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that "dragon" is from Latin, "wyrm" (or "worm") is Germanic and the Chinese word is "Lung".
quote:
On that note don’t Chinese/Japanese Dragons tend to be more celestial creatures rather than the Flesh, bone and Winged monstrosities of European folk tales?
That, OTOH, is true.

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DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 39 of 50 (242551)
09-12-2005 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
09-11-2005 1:00 AM


Re: Common language
Phatboy writes:
What I mean't is that a Beagle in China sounds like a Beagle in America....
And a human baby crying in China sounds like a human baby crying in America.

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Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 40 of 50 (242812)
09-13-2005 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
09-08-2005 1:14 AM


Recap---and why a myth originates.
Nuggin writes:
There are many common elements in the mythologies of different cultures around the world. (ie Flood stories, dragons, man created from clay, etc.)
Many of the YEC have sited these as evidence that their theory is correct.
But aren't there other (better?) explainations for these stories. I'd like to suggest a few.
1) Common experience - (the is very close to the YEC argument) world wide changes in climate / world wide events will have similiar effects on the cultures of different people. For example: At the end of the Ice Age, the water levels would have risen re-flooding the vast shoreline tracts which had openned and become inhabited. Peoples all over the world would have experienced "a great flood", but not "The Great Flood".
2) Common reasoning - given similar discoveries, people from different cultures may draw similiar conclusions. For example: Megalodon (giant shark) teeth are fairly common fossils. There are a lot of them, they are generally well preserved. If someone with no frame of reference other than the natural world around them discovered one of these fist sized teeth, it's not hard to see how they would imagine it coming from a "dragon".
3) Common psychology - No matter what culture you come from, some things don't change. Children are born, people grow old and die, some people are mean, others are nice. Isn't it reasonable that facing similiar experiences, people would develop similiar coping mechanisms/rationalizations? For example: As babies are born with a flood of water from the womb, so too, couldn't the world have been born from a flood of water?
4) Common materials - The natural world offers up only so much for building materials. We've become very tricky at teasing out alloys and mixing up concrete, but clearly there was a time when people had only sticks, stones and clay. Given this limited exposure to materials isn't it reasonable that many different cultures have myths of man's creation being from clay. After all, clay is much more like flesh than sticks or stones.
To my mind, these explain many of the points raised about the common myths. They do so within the framework of the evidence at hand and don't rely on "magic".
Anyone have other examples? Questions? Disagreements?
There has to be reasons why "myths" or legends arise. The Bible makes sense in its definition of how a group of people gathered in the plains of Shinar Either through a divine action of God,(the myth) or through the natural instincts of human competition and survival, a gathering of people in Mesopotamia to build a symbolic ziggurat failed to demonstrate unity.
The "myth"...if indeed we define the story as such...illustrates a point about human nature and alligience.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 41 of 50 (242815)
09-13-2005 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
09-13-2005 2:26 AM


Re: Recap---and why a myth originates.
There is certainly some reason why the Babel myth arose. But it might be no more than curiosity and the story-telling impulse. Why are therediffernet peoples with different languages ? what were those large, ancient ruins ? how do we fit those into our world-view ? Here's a story...
I suppose it is possible that the Babel story - like the Flood story - is derived from more ancient tales. But if there is an underlying factual basis for the story it lies well beyond those older stories and can't be reliably discerned from the Bible.E

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 42 of 50 (242836)
09-13-2005 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by PaulK
09-13-2005 3:05 AM


Re: Recap---and why a myth originates.
PaulK writes:
There is certainly some reason why the Babel myth arose. But it might be no more than curiosity and the story-telling impulse. Why are therediffernet peoples with different languages ? what were those large, ancient ruins ? how do we fit those into our world-view?
You bring up a key point with THAT word, "worldview". Even if I believed that the Bible was largely myths and parables, I would still never consider God Himself to be a human derived myth.
Human wisdom may assert that languages became diverse over a survival mechanism. Its a bit similar to why teenagers have a slanguage common only among their peers. Naaamean? Parents don't quite "get it" unless they bother to seek communion with their kids rather than imperialistic dominance.
For a believer, Gods interaction with humanity is a given, so the purpose of the "myth" may be that original sin and the inborn traits of dominance, control, and secrecy within the subgroup were mean't to happen as a result of the human choice to "be god" rather than worship one.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 43 of 50 (242841)
09-13-2005 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
09-13-2005 7:45 AM


Re: Recap---and why a myth originates.
I don't think that language drift is a survival mechanism in itself. Short-term drift may be partly due to group-bonding (members of a group - or wannabe members - pick up and use terms coined within the group). Longer term divergence simply follows because new terms are invented and spread locally and because pronunciation tends to vary.
On worldviews I think you need to consider that the originators of the myth had a very different worldview form yours - and probably a quite different view of God.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 44 of 50 (242849)
09-13-2005 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by PaulK
09-13-2005 8:03 AM


Re: Recap---and why a myth originates.
Good point.
Literalists often see the Bible as culturally applicable to the 21st century mindset.
It is virtually impossible for a cultural anthropologist to not have a bias originating from their own cultural view. Even anthropologists admit this.

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 45 of 50 (242899)
09-13-2005 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
09-13-2005 7:45 AM


Re: Recap---and why a myth originates.
I would still never consider God Himself to be a human derived myth.
Okay, but how about Coyote, or Ginesh, or Isis, etc. Are these Gods myths?
This message has been edited by Nuggin, 09-13-2005 10:29 AM

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