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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
jar
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Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2 of 675 (402703)
05-29-2007 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminPhat
05-29-2007 12:33 PM


A couple prelimary points.
I wanted to discuss Protestant Dogma, church tradition, and various beliefs within Christianity in general.

First off, what is "Protestant Dogma?"

Is it the writings of Bishop Spong? He, after all, is a protestant minister.

I want this topic to focus on what it means to be ignorant within the contexts of belief, whether there is dishonesty involved in Fundamentalist Protestantism, and whether or not logic should trump blind faith when it comes to believing 7 incredible things before Breakfast!

What in the world does "to be ignorant within the contexts of belief" mean? It seems like just a nonsense statement.

Reason should always trump blind faith. In fact, blind faith should just be thrown away.

What is the definition of willful ignorance within the context of
belief?

I have no idea what you mean by "within the context of belief" but willful ignorance can best be shown by looking at some of the statements you have posted in the past.

For example, if you look at the statement of core values form Westminster Seminary, the second item is:

Scripture, as the "very Word of God written," is absolutely authoritative and without error.

This statement presumes an attitude of "Willful Ignorance."

Who defines which people or church belief statements should be grouped in the category of ignorance?

The statements themselves.

Why do you believe that your belief paradigm offers a more honest portrayal of Christian Belief?

I have never made that assertion. What I have said is that people should test what I say against reality and reason. They should them make up their own minds.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 4 of 675 (403001)
05-31-2007 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Thugpreacha
05-31-2007 9:30 AM


Re: A couple prelimary points.
That's fine but you did not answer any of the questions.

You said in the OP that you wanted to discuss Protestant Dogma.

What is Protestant Dogma?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 6 of 675 (403032)
05-31-2007 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Thugpreacha
05-31-2007 2:26 PM


Re: A couple prelimary points.
I was assuming that Protestant dogma varies from church to church.

Then it is not "Protestant Dogma" but rather the dogma of some individual church or sect.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 8 of 675 (403143)
05-31-2007 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Thugpreacha
05-31-2007 3:02 PM


Re: Lets reframe our discussion
What in the world does "to be ignorant within the contexts of belief" mean?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 11 of 675 (405517)
06-13-2007 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Thugpreacha
06-13-2007 5:14 AM


Re: Pelagianism
I was talking with a Theology student today and was telling him of some of my debates at EvC. When I brought your beliefs up, he pointed me towards Pelagianism.

Why?

Without knowing too much of it, I read the Wiki article and it seemed to fit much of your beliefs to a tee.

In what way? If you know so little about Pelagian how can you know whether or not it fits me to a tee?

Any comments?

Yes.

Did you really even read the Wiki article that you linked to or as usual did you just skim over it?

Did you read the line that says:

quote:
Pelagianism was opposed by Augustine of Hippo, who taught that a person's salvation ultimately comes through the grace of God but that a person must also perform freely chosen good works.

Have you ever heard me say that salvation is a done deal, freely given, but that we are expected to try to do what is right?

I'm sorry but your post is just another example of willful ignorance of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

You were talking with a freaking theology student and brought my beliefs up. The student immediately suggest Pelagian who was considered a heretic.

"Alleluia," Phat's inner demon sang, "I alway new he was a heretic."

Well sorry Phat. Actually my beliefs are closer to those of Augustine than to Pelagius even though they were both wrong on many points.

Let me try to outline some of the major areas of agreement and disagreement between my position and and either of those.

I believe there is no "Original Sin".

First, there is nothing in the tales beginning in Genesis 2 that suggests that until perhaps the story of Cain and Abel. Second, there never was an Adam and Eve. Third, the believe in some GOE Original Sin makes God evil and would today get God sued for creating an "Attractive Nuisance."

I believe part of the story of the GOE is that we are charged to try to do what is right. We will be judged based on how well we do.

Pelagius and others like him (many of the monastic orders actually seem to follow Pelagius even though they condemn Pelagianism with their lips) were "perfectionists", believing that it was mans job to "perfect" his life.

I disagree.

I believe I have said here at EvC many times that we are expected to try to do what is right, to honestly examine our behavior and admit when we have done wrong, try to make amends for those wrong actions and try not to do them again.

Nothing in there about Perfection.

I will be happy to continue discussing areas of agreement and disagreement with Pelagianism but first I suggest you actually find out what it is you are talking about.

One last comment.

As I said above, your post is classic Christian Cult of Ignorance. It is the retreat to labels and shows willful ignorance of my beliefs. I can say that because you have in the past repeated the key points I list above back to me, so I know that you knew them. Yet you were ready to willfully ignore what you knew to grab onto a label that you believed you could apply to me instead of actually thinking the issue through.

I can say that because you posted "I read the Wiki article and it seemed to fit much of your beliefs to a tee" when that simply is not the case. In addition you did not list which of my beliefs you thought "fit it to a tee" or why you believed there was some one to one correspondence.

I honestly doubt you even read the article but rather just skimmed over it quotemining a couple pieces parts out of the very first line.

I may well be wrong, but this discussion will help determine that.

Just as an aside.

Way back in the mid fifties in high school part of Sacred Studies was reading the works of Pelagius. One thing to remember is that most of what we have from him comes down to us through those who opposed his writings or reconstructions from Augustine's "On Nature and Grace" which was written as a response to Pelagius.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 13 of 675 (407572)
06-26-2007 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Thugpreacha
06-14-2007 7:53 PM


Re: Wassup, Dawg(ma)?
My question to you is if you believe that Brown is teaching willful ignorance, how is he doing it?

Another question: If we are the judges of what is and is not enlightenment (the opposite of willful ignorance) how is it that we were given this charge rather than the Bible?

Huh?

Is he just quotemining? Does he explain the reasoning behind his assertions?

Were we not given the capability to think?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-14-2007 7:53 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 15 of 675 (408408)
07-02-2007 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Thugpreacha
07-02-2007 12:04 PM


Re: The Responsibility to Question
My question to you is: In your quest for testing your beliefs and affirming some things and rejecting others, how do you determine what is and is not of God?

You test against reason, logic and reality.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 17 of 675 (408410)
07-02-2007 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Thugpreacha
07-02-2007 12:18 PM


Re: The Responsibility to Question
So would you presuppose that God is reasonable, logical and real?

I'm not at all sure what that means?

Real?

If God is unreasonable and illogical, then could we form any conclusions?

You asked how one can "Know a message is from GOD" and I said test the answer against reason, logic and reality.

Do you agree that evidence of God is to be found through observing nature?

No. I may see such evidence but it is simply a belief, no more.

Do you believe that God can ever be known personally?

If I am right. Once you are dead.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 19 of 675 (408415)
07-02-2007 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Thugpreacha
07-02-2007 12:54 PM


Re: Critics are a dime a dozen
My question: Why do you believe that a God who chose only some of the people (or who foreknew that only some would choose)would thus be an evil God?

If GOD is the creator, GOD creates everyone.

If GOD then chooses only some of those She creates and condemns the others, then GOD creates only to punish.

If GOD foreknows the results and still goes on to create folk, then GOD creates only to punish.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 21 of 675 (408420)
07-02-2007 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Thugpreacha
07-02-2007 1:07 PM


Re: Critics are a dime a dozen
HUH?

Infinite "what if loops"?

If God knows the end results then all of the responsibility for the end result lies with God.

What if God foreknows who will choose Him yet still allows for the decision to be independently made?

If God knows the end result, the decision is not independently made.

What id God foreknows the results, allows it to happen not so much for punishment as for discipline, and allows some to choose wrongly for reasons yet unknown?

And that is different how?

Perhaps the second group who chooses wrongly will get another chance on down the road.....

That is actually likely and has Biblical support.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 23 of 675 (409429)
07-09-2007 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Thugpreacha
07-09-2007 12:48 PM


Re: What God expects
One thing I don't understand is the evil God thing you keep bringing up.

Do you believe that GOD creates all that is, seen and unseen?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 25 of 675 (409432)
07-09-2007 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Thugpreacha
07-09-2007 1:09 PM


Re: What God expects
One thing that He does not create, however, is my thinking ability...does He?
I mean, if He creates every thought that I thought, think, or will think, it is no longer I that think.

So you are saying that God does not know what you will think?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 27 of 675 (409435)
07-09-2007 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Thugpreacha
07-09-2007 1:21 PM


Re: What God expects
But...for the purpose of this question, God does ultimately know what I will eventually decide.

Is that your final answer?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-09-2007 1:21 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 29 of 675 (409438)
07-09-2007 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Thugpreacha
07-09-2007 1:34 PM


Re: What God expects
So God creates all that is, seen and unseen; and God knows what you will think.

Are Satanists saved?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31987
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 31 of 675 (409440)
07-09-2007 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Thugpreacha
07-09-2007 1:47 PM


Re: What God expects
If we believe that everyone is saved initially by Gods Grace, the Satanist would not have to jump through theological hoops...they would have to acknowledge God as sovereign over their free will, however.

Did you or did you not say that God knows all that they will think?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-09-2007 1:47 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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