Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 71 (9015 total)
968 online now:
PaulK, xongsmith (2 members, 966 visitors)
Newest Member: Ashles
Post Volume: Total: 882,115 Year: 13,863/23,288 Month: 55/326 Week: 75/92 Day: 1/24 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 375 of 675 (742298)
11-18-2014 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Taq
11-18-2014 4:56 PM


Re: An interesting example of women speaking during a service.
When was this golden age that the religious right keeps talking about?

Too, regardless of when it was, it is what lead to what we have today.

So if today is so terrible, then perhaps it wasn't so golden after all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Taq, posted 11-18-2014 4:56 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 426 of 675 (742426)
11-19-2014 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Taq
11-19-2014 6:11 PM


Re: An interesting example of women speaking during a service.
The Messiah was known to the Jews through prophecy throughout their history, they never heard of Mohammed or Allah and repudiate them to this day.

Never was the Messiah described as the Son of God, and Jesus failed to fulfill those prophecies as you have been shown time and again.

If Jesus was the Messiah to the Jews, then why are there still Jews?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Taq, posted 11-19-2014 6:11 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 468 of 675 (742560)
11-21-2014 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Faith
11-21-2014 5:49 PM


Re: Try actually reading the Bible Faith
Faith writes:

jar writes:

Faith writes:

Jesus said Repent and believe. That's all we're supposed to do.


You really haven't read the Bible have you Faith.

quote:
And one of them, a doctor of the Law, putting him to the test, asked him, "Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?" Jesus said to him, "'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.' This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like it, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:35-40)
Repent and believe, you can't do the rest until after that.

Are you saying that people are unable to love their neighbors as themselves if they do not repent and believe?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Faith, posted 11-21-2014 5:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by Faith, posted 11-21-2014 9:57 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 480 of 675 (742633)
11-22-2014 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Faith
11-21-2014 9:57 PM


Re: Read it and believe it
You have to repent and believe, those were the first words of Jesus.

Chapter and verse?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Faith, posted 11-21-2014 9:57 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by PaulK, posted 11-22-2014 3:35 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 484 by Theodoric, posted 11-22-2014 4:09 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 485 by Faith, posted 11-22-2014 4:28 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 490 of 675 (742661)
11-22-2014 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 485 by Faith
11-22-2014 4:28 PM


Re: Read it and believe it
Message 466 and Matthew 4:17

Thanks.

You realize that Jesus is not talking about believing in the Bible, right?

What do you mean by saying that the other stuff can't follow if you don't repent and believe?

How does that follow from what Jesus said?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by Faith, posted 11-22-2014 4:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by Faith, posted 11-22-2014 7:51 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 495 of 675 (742669)
11-22-2014 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 493 by Faith
11-22-2014 7:51 PM


Re: Read it and believe it
Jesus is talking about believing in Himself.

But I'm talking about belief as such being what the Christian life is largely about. Read it and believe it.

You're effectively taking Christ out of your Christianity, and replacing Him with the Bible.

Rather than believing in Him, and thus doing what he says, you focus on believing in the words that you read in the Bible.

If Jesus were posting, he'd tell you to stop worrying about all that believing what you read stuff and instead get up and go out and make good in the world. Go feed hungry people, etc.

When Jesus talks about believing in Himself, He means that you have to trust that He's delivering the true message, and thus follow what he say to do. He says to go help people in need, not believe what the words in the Bible say.

You say that the "rest of it" follows from believing, but people who don't believe can and do go help people in need. And its actually you Biblicans, or christians who focus on believing the words in the Bible instead of following Jesus' example, are the one's who seem to be unable to do the rest of it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 493 by Faith, posted 11-22-2014 7:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by Faith, posted 11-22-2014 11:11 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 500 of 675 (742695)
11-23-2014 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 497 by Faith
11-23-2014 12:32 AM


Re: Read it and believe it
From Message 496:

How very odd. Obviously by your reasoning we aren't supposed to help people in need either, because those words are in the Bible.

That is totally false and illogical.

I never said nor implied that we aren't supposed to help people in need because those words are not in the Bible.

My point in Message 495 was that Jesus Christ instucted us to act, not just believe, and that your opinion that He meant belief over action is both misguided and false.

From your Message 497:

Oh, but most important of all, Jesus Who?

Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Still can't get around the fact that Jesus is said to have said, but of course He doesn't exist and never said anything by your lights, but anyway, He's said to have said to Believe the gospel, meaning believe in Me, which He repeats in other parts of the gospels, oh sorry, but of course they don't exist. Jesus Who?

That mess of words does not make sense in English.

Repent and believe it, or Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which is really the same message, Repent for the messiah is finally here. That was His first message to the world.

The verses you quoted happened when Jesus was an adult, no? Did he not have any messages at all before then? These weren't actually his "first" messages, no?

What was his actual "first" message?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 497 by Faith, posted 11-23-2014 12:32 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 501 by Faith, posted 11-23-2014 2:09 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 505 of 675 (742761)
11-24-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 501 by Faith
11-23-2014 2:09 AM


Re: Read it and believe it
No, but you made much of the fact that Jesus said them and that this is the whole point of His ministry, to teach us such things, while at the same time telling me I put too much trust in the Bible; and my answer is that if you are going to keep objecting to my pointing to the Bible as the source of truth then you are eliminating your own source of what Jesus said, so that we don't have to obey any of His commands, to help people in need or whatever. Eliminate the Bible and you eliminate Jesus and everything He said.

Ha! You're trying to turn this into a black and white, all or nothing dichotomy. That I'm saying to read nothing in the Bible. I've said nothing of the sort.

I've said that you shouldn't put "believing in the words on the page" above following the message of Jesus.

And my answer, which you seem to find so hard to grasp, is that if you keep dismissing the Bible as the inerrant source of truth it is, then you also dismiss Jesus and everything He said.

That's not true at all. We can assess claims of truth against reality without having to assume that the source is entirely true.

Two plus two equals five and you should treat people how you want to be treated. The fact that the first clause is false does not render the second clause as untrue.

We can see that Jesus teaches us truth without having to believe that the Earth was created 6000 years ago, for example.

I haven't discounted that He has given us commands to act, but you are discounting that His main and first command was to believe, believe the gospel, believe in Him.

That's wrong. Jesus explicitly told us what the greatest commandment was. He also explicitly explained to us what its means to believe in Him - that is, what we must do in order for that to be true.

You are just assuming that the opening clause in his testimony was the most important part. But He told us, Himself, otherwise.

And we know that opening clause cannot be talking about believe the words in the Bible.

You seem to think you can pick and choose whatever you like from the Bible.

No, not whatever I "like"; we can assess the Bible against reality and accept what is true and reject what is false.

It is not an all or nothing deal.

But you can't call Him "the Son of God" without the Bible to tell you that's who He is.

Patently false: people were calling Him the Son of God before the Bible was even compiled.

Too, people called Him the Son of God when they couldn't even read the Bible.

Its about receiving the message, and you don't need to read the Bible for that. It can be spread verbally. And it was sourced before the Bible was even written.

He said quite a bit about believing. It's all in the Bible along with the commandments such as "Love your neighbor as yourself" but by your lights I don't have to take that commandment seriously at all anyway because believing the Bible is stupid.

That's not my claim at all. Here it is again:

Putting "believing the words in the Bible" above "following the message of Jesus" is stupid.

Jesus, Himself, told us how to follow his message by feeding the hungry, etc., and doing for the least of His people. That is His greatest commandment, according to Him.

Do you particularly dislike the Gospel of John perhaps? Seems to have the most references to belief.

John 5:47 is particularly interesting:

But if ye believe not his [Moses'] writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Isn't He saying basically "Believe the Bible" by saying this? "Believe the Torah" for starters. And if you don't then you can't believe anything He says either.

Nope. He is saying that you have to believe in his message of Jesus that he is bringing, and if you can't bring yourself to believe Moses's prophecies about the coming of this message, then you're probably not going to believe the message, itself.

You gotta read that whole section, not quote-mine that last part. Check out John 5:39-40

quote:
39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

You have to "come to him" and that means to follow the message. You can't just find eternal life in the Scriptures. You gotta go out and do good in the world.

Here's the rest of that part:

quote:
41 I do not receive glory from people. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

He's saying that Moses wrote about him and therefore if you believe Moses then you should believe his message to - the message that came from The Father through His Son Jesus Christ.

He is not saying that you have to believe in the Bible. He is saying that if you reject Moses's writings about him, then you are not going to be able to accept that he is delivering a message from The Father.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Faith, posted 11-23-2014 2:09 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 506 by Faith, posted 11-24-2014 4:29 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 613 of 675 (762561)
07-13-2015 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 609 by Mal
07-13-2015 10:57 AM


Re: Jesus is alive
If the Bible contains errors, falsehoods, contradictions, and irrelevancies as you say, then why believe anything that is in it?

The sky is green and two plus two equals four.

The fact that the first part is false does not render the second part false too.

Placing a truth next to a falsehood does not make the truth wrong.

Just because the Bible gets some things wrong doesn't mean that you have to throw the whole book out. There's still all the valuable lessons in there.

The reason you should believe something that the Bible says is because you have assessed it and found it to be true.

The worst thing you could do is just believe it all just because it is in the Bible. That's how you get ridiculous nonsense like YEC.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Mal, posted 07-13-2015 10:57 AM Mal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by Mal, posted 07-13-2015 1:09 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 620 of 675 (762580)
07-13-2015 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 616 by Mal
07-13-2015 1:09 PM


Re: Jesus is alive
The way I read Jar's reply was that he is saying there's a great deal of problems with the text, so if it is 'full' of problems then why bother with it.

Well, in some cases people are just as much culturally a Christian as they are religiously a Christian.

There may be true incidents some where in the texts.

Still doesn't even matter that much. Whether or not the story of 'The Good Samaritan', for instance, every actually happened has nothing to do with the lessons we can learn from it.

Even when that story is a complete fabrication, we can still take a truthful lesson from it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by Mal, posted 07-13-2015 1:09 PM Mal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 623 by MrHambre, posted 07-13-2015 3:09 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 633 of 675 (762892)
07-17-2015 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 632 by Faith
07-16-2015 9:48 PM


Why do you think that God screwed over the Jews so bad?

The way you have it, He was telling them all this stuff thousands of years ago and they were believing it without knowing that what they thought God was saying to them was actually a secretly embedded code for people to figure out thousands of years later.

Meanwhile, the Jews were basing their lifestyles and religion on what God had actually said to them, as opposed to the future secret message that they didn't even know about.

God has the gall to call them his "chosen people" while he's secretly using their entire culture as a set-up for a group of totally unrelated people thousands of years in the future to receive these hidden messages that they need magical powers to uncover.

And nowadays they have to accept that their entire culture and religion was just plain wrong the whole time and instead they have to swallow that there was secret message that was cleverly hidden within their own teachings for thousands of years that God purposefully disguised from them so that a small portion of their adversaries would get to know the real truth about all the things that God really had going on while he was calling them His chosen people for centuries.

God tricked them into believing an entire religion that was wrong just so that He could reveal a hidden message to unrelated people thousands of years in the future.

That's a terrible thing to do to a whole culture of people.

Why do you think that God did that to the Jews?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by Faith, posted 07-16-2015 9:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020