But, Paul is important because his writings, his views and his philosophy, his personal hangups, are the very heart of the religion. His letters comprise a huge chunk of the present bible. He has more words in the canons than Jesus. Paul defined the church. He made the church in his own image. What we live with today is not a church of Christ but a Pauline church. Jesus was just the front man. Later they kept the name christian for marketing purposes.
Very interesting discussion. Thank you. Why such a devout atheist would find this discussion of such interest goes to one of my many personality flaws. I like people and I like to watch them tick.
I find that there is, philosophically, no difference in any of you. What I see is some misunderstanding of what jar is espousing.
If you find the words I put in your mouths distasteful please feel free to spit them back out.
I see jar saying he is a Christian. I see him saying that he believes, as a matter of faith, in the reality of god, Jesus, the resurrection, the whole Christian creed thing, just as do you others. Where I see the misunderstanding is where jar acknowledges that his beliefs may be erroneous. GDR and Phat are taking this as some form of disbelief on jar’s part. Further, jar states that whether god/Jesus/resurrection, which he does believe in, are actual realities of this universe or not, to him the message, the teachings, are more important.
In the Christian vernacular, I hear jar saying that he acknowledges and accepts “The Gift”™ while being quite straightforward in saying that whether this self-serving belief is real or not does not enhance nor diminish the teachings a Christian life is to follow.
While the philosophy is the same, in detail GDR and Phat seem to put more emphasis on “The Gift”™ as the defining belief of a Christian rather than on the teachings. And, no, I am not implying that the teachings are not important to them.
Jar is saying that since the reality of a Christian’s beliefs in god/Jesus/resurrection cannot be known until they have passed over the most important thing on this side for the Christian is to conduct one’s life in accord with the teachings; that though the beliefs are certainly important to being a Christian, thus he is a Christian, the only presently known demonstrable reality for the Christian is to follow the teachings.
Maybe this is what resonates with me from this discussion: whether Jesus the Jew said it, or Jesus the resurrected divinity said it, or Paul the Christian said it, or Gandhi the Hindu said it, or Arthur Clarke the humanist said it, the teachings of respectful compassionate love for others are paramount over any belief, or lack thereof, for the conduct of one’s life.
Re: An interesting example of women speaking during a service.
Death is optional? C'mon...it will never happen.
Well ... actually, it certainly will be if we don't kill off our species first.
But, Tangle is being a pessimist with his 500 year quip. It will happen in the next 50 years for the elite and by 2150 for the rest of the population. Which is even more of a real pisser having come so close.
Even immortals though can be killed, they just don't die of old age.
That will be true initially but given the modular nature of our cybernetic pieces parts all but the most devastating of accidents will be recoverable.
Soon after that, however, even being stomped flat by an evil Megatron will only kill the present iteration of one of the clones in your collective conscious personal being.
And further after that your entire existence will be within the matrix where you can play the tragic hero of every story ever simultaneously while living multiple lives of luxury and sensual fantasy as various species with thousands of collectively joined others all clearly vividly experienced by your own personal collective consciousness.
Or, we can all be well on our way to being extinct by the end of this century.