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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 384 of 675 (742312)
11-18-2014 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by jar
11-18-2014 4:37 PM


Open Mouth Insert Foot
jar writes:
Today the typical westerner is far more moral than Jesus.
Just when I think you are an honest representative of Christianity you make off the wall comments such as this one which you have no evidence nor business making. First of all, Jesus was talking in context to the people He encountered at that time with the customs that they employed--stoning being a prime example. What you fail to acknowledge when you make such a statement such as this is that
1)Jesus was not simply some human character that sinned and made mistakes. Most chapters of club christian, as you call it, see Jesus as the Nicene Creed sees Him. Did you not claim at one time to be a "Creedal Christian"?
2) The typical Westerner is not at all moral.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 11-18-2014 4:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by jar, posted 11-18-2014 9:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 387 of 675 (742315)
11-18-2014 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by Theodoric
11-18-2014 5:41 PM


Are people really becoming more moral?
Theodoric writes:
There was never a time of hyper morality that people like Faith harken back to.
I agree. When Paul wrote Romans he was referring to people in general...the human condition when he said
Rom 3:9-11 writes:
We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
One could argue that the standards of morality have evolved since the days of Paul and Rome.
Theodoric writes:
Morality and quality of life continues to change and improve every generation.
In some ways I agree with you. In other ways, I disagree. Modern warfare is more horrific and attrocious than anything in Pauls day. The typical Westerner is a hedonist.
2 Tim 3:1-5 writes:
There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God- 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power.
Can anyone argue that this does not describe the life on the streets in any large modern city?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Theodoric, posted 11-18-2014 5:41 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by ringo, posted 11-19-2014 11:12 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 413 by Theodoric, posted 11-19-2014 1:18 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 390 of 675 (742318)
11-18-2014 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by Taq
11-18-2014 4:30 PM


Pros & Cons Of Todays Life
Taq writes:
If today's quality of life is a curse, then I say we need to be cursed more often.
There are pros and cons.
Pro: Our medical care has evolved and developed and is capable of stopping many of the diseases and accidents that doomed ancient peoples.
Con: It costs a fortune and is becoming something that only wealthier people can afford. Additionally, many of the worst diseases such as diabetes and cancer can be caused by the habits of our culture.
Pro: Wars are becoming more infrequent...so far.
Con: The potential for mass destruction and death has increased technologically.
Pro: People are becoming more empathetic towards fellow humans and less bigoted--in general.
Con: People are becoming less spiritual and more competitive as global resources shrink.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Taq, posted 11-18-2014 4:30 PM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 397 of 675 (742331)
11-19-2014 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by jar
11-18-2014 9:10 PM


Re: Open Mouth Insert Foot
jar writes:
Yet you claim to have read the Nicene Creed.
quote:
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
And was made man.
Not man/god, not god disguised as man but man. Just man. A man with morals of his era, who lost his temper, snapped at his mom, used the resources of his friends to buy oils of himself.
Then why does the creed also say:
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God,] Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
I think that you have decided to believe that Jesus was only human. I do not believe this to be so.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by jar, posted 11-18-2014 9:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by jar, posted 11-19-2014 8:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 407 of 675 (742371)
11-19-2014 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 400 by jar
11-19-2014 9:21 AM


Re: Open Mouth Insert Foot
jar writes:
Ah, but there is such a thing as Faith and not all beliefs need be support by evidence, reasonable, logical or even rational.
Faith in what? How could you have faith in something you could not see and could not test for evidence?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by jar, posted 11-19-2014 9:21 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by jar, posted 11-19-2014 11:30 AM Phat has replied
 Message 414 by Theodoric, posted 11-19-2014 1:21 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 409 of 675 (742374)
11-19-2014 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by jar
11-19-2014 11:30 AM


Re: Open Mouth Insert Foot
jar writes:
Unless Jesus was fully and solely human while here on earth the whole message is but a sham, a fraud, a con job.
Explain further. Why would Jesus being fully God and fully man be a con job?
Theodoric,in another thread writes:
I'd tell him and his dad to go screw themselves. If they are the creators of all the suffering in the world then I will go with another option. I have no desire to spend eternity with anything so vain, egotistical and immoral as the christian god and little boy jesus.
For someone who does not believe, this seems like quite an emotional response. Why the hatred for God and Jesus? I could understand you being angry at religion...but we both know that religion is all about humans trying to reach God or trying to sell Him for their own prophet.(sic)
Tangle,also in another thread writes:
Yeh, well, if that's the only hope we have, it's a pity he been dead 2000 year;, that kind of limits the knowing of someone.
There's nothing much to be done about it now unless he'd care to re-introduce himself and we'd all be happy to hear what he has to say. I've also got a few pithy questions I'd like to put to him too.
What sort of questions would you ask Him?
I believe that I understand jars beliefs. Jesus was an example of what a human could do. For some reason, jar cant grasp the idea of Jesus being fully God and fully human as being possible.
So I ask all three of you. (Suspend your disbelief for a moment) If Jesus returned today and offered you salvation as a gift that you did not earn and asked you to allow Him into your heart, would you accept the offer? Ask more questions? Or reject the offer?
It appears jar would ask more questions.
jar writes:
Why is communion necessary?
What are the tests to show that communion exists?
What are the tests to determine who you be communing wit?
How come so many folk seem to be able to do their best without such communion?
How does communion provide something other than your own strength?
What strength other than their own strength can someone have?
Does anyone else agree with jars list of questions and perhaps have any questions to add to the list? Tangle appeared to have a few pithy ones... (goes to look up pithy)

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by jar, posted 11-19-2014 11:30 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by Theodoric, posted 11-19-2014 1:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 411 of 675 (742377)
11-19-2014 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by jar
11-19-2014 11:30 AM


Re: Open Mouth Insert Foot
jar writes:
When it comes to things I can't see or test then Faith is the only other option. You believe, don't believe, are unsure or believe it really doesn't matter.
Did Jesus exist in any form before he was born? No idea, don't see any way it might matter.
When Jesus was alive here on earth was he fully and only human? In my belief, yes. That is the only way I can see for the story to have any value or worth to humans.
Was Jesus physically present after the resurrection? No idea and the stories have so many contradictions and inconsistencies I see no way to make even a guess on the matter. And I also can't see how it makes any differences to humans.
Is Jesus alive after the ascension? Again I can see absolutely no way or reason to say Jesus was or is alive after the ascension but can say Jesus would definitely not be human at that time.
I will try to get to both of your sets of questions later...I have to get ready for work and go make Mom some lunch. Thanks for challenging me to think again...sorry if I get testy with you some times.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by jar, posted 11-19-2014 11:30 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 516 of 675 (742823)
11-25-2014 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 515 by GDR
11-24-2014 11:44 PM


Re: Why does it matter?
GDR, you have to understand the bylaws of jars particular club (or Chapter) of Christianity.
  • They believe that even if Jesus never existed and the stories were simply tales passed down among humans, the message was still valid. We are charged to try to do our best for others. Even if GOD never existed, the spirit behind this club lives on in the members. Thus, jars club is Christian Philosophy. Which isnt a bad thing, necessarily...sometimes I think jar is the Apostle to the Atheists.
  • They see GOD as unknowable.
  • The core belief is the application of logic, reason, and reality to test everything ever written or said and weigh it against the charge that the club is under. They claim to be cradle Creedal Christians.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
    One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 515 by GDR, posted 11-24-2014 11:44 PM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 517 by GDR, posted 11-25-2014 3:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 518 of 675 (742836)
    11-25-2014 7:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 514 by jar
    11-24-2014 7:31 PM


    Club jar and Club Paul
    jar writes:
    So back to the "What's in it for me!" Christianity?
    Is that how you see the message of Club: Paul?
    I would prefer to think of it as "What's in it for us?"
    GDR seems to think that without Jesus the resurrected One, it is all a waste of time(as a religion). I would agree, but understand that your particular club would thrive even if GOD never existed.
    May as well try and do the best we can in the life that we have.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
    One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 514 by jar, posted 11-24-2014 7:31 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 520 of 675 (742843)
    11-25-2014 8:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 519 by jar
    11-25-2014 8:46 AM


    Re: Why does it matter?
    jar writes:
    ...why is it not Christianity the religion? Why is saying it does not matter whether or not there was a physical resurrection rejecting the resurrection?
    I think what GDR means is that unbelief in the resurrection strips the power from the resurrection as a belief.
    Some "Clubs" focus on the death,burial, and resurrection as crucial for the belief to have any meaning.
    You, OTOH, have focused on Jesus life rather than His atoning death.

    Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
    One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 519 by jar, posted 11-25-2014 8:46 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 521 by jar, posted 11-25-2014 8:56 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 522 of 675 (742856)
    11-25-2014 9:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 521 by jar
    11-25-2014 8:56 AM


    Re: Why does it matter?
    jar writes:
    Again, that is the "What's in it for me" Christianity. When you introduce Jesus' death as a sacrifice, Jesus paying some of your bills, I see Jesus diminished, reduced in nature and character. I see it as just a cop out.
    Remember when you were in science class and were on a nature outing? The wonder that was in your eyes as you saw little wooly caterpillars and other bugs up close? The wonder which you loved! The questions which you had.
    GODs creation is a magnificent testimony.
    Now lets take Jesus. For the sake of argument, I'll go with your idea that while on earth Jesus was just human, as the roly polys were just bugs. Now...in context, you grew up infused with a sobering charge towards personal responsibility. It is in your nature. This is why, I think, you ask why it even matters if Jesus existed apart from a character in a story and why it is important.
    I present you a living character. A man alive today. One whom you can get to know better. One whom has much more discipline, character, and a sense of personal responsibility than 95% of the Christians.
    Get to know this man. Are you too proud to accept His sacrifice? Would you be the type of character who would insist on paying your own bill at the restaurant even if I offered to pay it?
    Would my character be in any way diminished if I helped you?

    Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
    One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 521 by jar, posted 11-25-2014 8:56 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 523 by jar, posted 11-25-2014 9:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 526 of 675 (742938)
    11-25-2014 3:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 525 by jar
    11-25-2014 1:31 PM


    Re: Why does it matter?
    jar writes:
    The charge is valid regardless of the source or authority.
    Which means the content of the charge is valid. Not the source. Which means it is a philosophy.
    I told everyone and shall say it again: You are the Apostle to the Atheists.
    If the Source is not important, and if GOD is the source, the charge is a human construct meant for human ears.
    Not that its a bad thing. You may argue that we cannot test for evidence and, therefore, all "religions" are in the same boat.

    Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
    One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 525 by jar, posted 11-25-2014 1:31 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 527 by jar, posted 11-25-2014 5:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 539 of 675 (743127)
    11-27-2014 7:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 538 by Theodoric
    11-26-2014 10:38 PM


    Re: Why does it matter?
    Richard Carrier is not infallible. He too sells books and has an agenda. Just sayin....
    Jesus Did Exist: A Response to Richard Carrier

    Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
    One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 538 by Theodoric, posted 11-26-2014 10:38 PM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 540 by Theodoric, posted 11-27-2014 8:14 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 548 by Theodoric, posted 11-28-2014 9:52 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 547 of 675 (743188)
    11-27-2014 10:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 534 by GDR
    11-26-2014 8:02 PM


    Re: Why does it matter?
    GDR writes:
    Christianity is about believing those things to be historically true. If they aren't true then Christianity is a sham and you seem to think that it is just fine to base one's life on something that is totally fictitious.
    If I didn't believe that Jesus lived and was resurrected by God then I certainly wouldn't call myself a Christian.
    I think that jars point and position is that it does not matter what one believes so much as it matters what one does for others versus what they had the capability to do.
    This is why I see jar as the unofficial "Apostle to the Atheists". The jist of this belief is, according to jar,
    quote:
    I just don't see where it is necessary to accept Christ in the first place. I imagine that there will be far more Atheists, Agnostics, Jews. Muslims, Buddhists, Satanist, Animists, Wiccans, Hindus and Taoists in heaven than Christians.
    In order to properly be an apostle to the atheists, one would have to be a cultural "doer" of good works,(simple love and compassion for others) non-religious, and holding logic, reason, and reality on a higher plane than belief.
    Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky

    Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
    One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 534 by GDR, posted 11-26-2014 8:02 PM GDR has not replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 549 of 675 (743207)
    11-28-2014 10:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 548 by Theodoric
    11-28-2014 9:52 AM


    Re: Why does it matter?
    why are you so cynical? To be fair, you dont really know me and I dont really know you. I have nothing against you personally. I only attack positions which are, in my opinion, antichristian. Not that Jesus needs defending, mind you. There will be times when I come across as insufferably arrogant...im human and my character is still being developed.
    It is my opinion, based on what I read and what I perceive, that some of these intellectual atheists are also arrogant...smug and self assured that their "facts" demolish any pretense of Christianity actually being true.
    It is my opinion that they are simply wrong. It is not a matter of evidence, since I have no objective evidence apart from my own character. It is a matter of faith and reasoned argumentation, which I am attempting to provide here.

    Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
    One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 548 by Theodoric, posted 11-28-2014 9:52 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 551 by Theodoric, posted 11-28-2014 12:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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