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Author
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Topic: The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 129 of 675 (420193)
09-06-2007 5:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 128 by jar
09-04-2007 5:04 PM
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Re: Jesus: Only human while on earth?
Jar writes: If Jesus is a God walking amongst us, what does that teach us?
That God cared enough about us worms to intervene.
Much of the support for my theological answers rests on the assumption of original sin so I can foresee the different theological approaches that you and I take in arriving at conclusions. Lets address some of your conclusions about religion:
Jar writes: A GOD that chooses who will be saved doesn’t make sense. A GOD that creates all and then goes through and picks and chooses who will be saved is just plain cruel and arbitrary and not something to be worshiped. Phat writes: I agree, but would maintain that humans become the decisions they make and are thus responsible for their path in life...irregardless whether or not God "foreknows" it... A GOD that wants to be worshiped is just too silly a thought. Phat writes: Unless God knows that the discipline of worship is good for us. Maybe some picayune God might worry about what folk thought of Her, like the little girl who worries that her corsage might not be right, too big, or too small, or the guy that worries about his tie not being in style or that people think he looks funny, but GOD cannot be so insecure. Phat writes: I don't imagine that God is insecure...it is that we are too secure without Him. Thats the whole problem! The idea of “Once saved always saved” just made no sense. That’s one of those simplistic ideas that gives folk an out. “Anyone who does something really wrong obviously wasn’t saved in the first place”, or so their argument went. That just felt way to much like a copout and just another example of mental gymnastics, a way of cheating and making excuses. Of course, nobody knows who is and is not saved...if such a reality exists. The whole idea of God creating a freewill Lucifer that chooses to become Satan and then is used as a temperer for mens souls sounds probable, perhaps, but I think that we are part of our future destiny by way of our behavior. So in that sense I agree with you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 128 by jar, posted 09-04-2007 5:04 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 130 by jar, posted 09-06-2007 5:25 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 131 of 675 (420345)
09-07-2007 2:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 130 by jar
09-06-2007 5:25 PM
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What About Prayer?
Jar writes: A God that wants to be worshiped is still a sick little critter. Okay. So what is your attitude about prayer? Is it necessary and if not, is it beneficial, in your opinion? I heard a good sermon this morning from Chip Ingram-Read Great Books Part 2He talks about how his prayer life went from sad to glad, and explains why he thinks it helped him.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 130 by jar, posted 09-06-2007 5:25 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 133 by jar, posted 09-07-2007 2:27 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 132 of 675 (420347)
09-07-2007 2:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 130 by jar
09-06-2007 5:25 PM
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Re: Jesus: Only human while on earth?
Jar writes: What exactly is the "Whole problem?" Lack of communion (communication) with God.? Look, I realize that our behavior counts more than our profession. I agree with you about that, even though critics would accuse you of advocating a "Works" Gospel over a Grace Gospel. (They probably have not read the Bible either!  ) Our buddy, Dr. Charles Stanley, had a good sermon today on Voiding The Grace Of God
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 130 by jar, posted 09-06-2007 5:25 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 134 by jar, posted 09-07-2007 2:29 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 135 of 675 (420358)
09-07-2007 2:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 133 by jar
09-07-2007 2:27 PM
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Re: What About Prayer?
Okay. So would you say that it is irrelevant whether God is listening and that our focus should be on what we are asking and why?
Jar writes: Sorry but communication is a two way street. How do you know who is on the other end? Perhaps the question should be:
Is God Listening? Does It Matter? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 133 by jar, posted 09-07-2007 2:27 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 136 by jar, posted 09-07-2007 3:01 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 137 of 675 (420372)
09-07-2007 3:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 136 by jar
09-07-2007 3:01 PM
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Re: What About Prayer?
Jar writes: Does it matter? If so, why? Prayer allows me to have a quiet time of introspection. o reflect on my shortcomings and how I can do better in the future. Prayer allows me to think of others besides myself and to be empathetic.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 136 by jar, posted 09-07-2007 3:01 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 138 by jar, posted 09-07-2007 3:27 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 139 of 675 (420387)
09-07-2007 4:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 138 by jar
09-07-2007 3:27 PM
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Re: What About Prayer?
If you are asking me whether God is required to exist in order for humans to make a difference in the environment known as reality, the answer is no. My personal belief is that God permeates reality itself, but that is a personal belief and is irrelevant to your question. Introspection and meditation appear to be capable of solitary reflection.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 138 by jar, posted 09-07-2007 3:27 PM | | jar has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 140 of 675 (422949)
09-18-2007 9:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 79 by jar
07-21-2007 9:57 AM
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Foreknowledge remix
jar writes: Phat you keep saying that God has foreknowledge. In believe that God has foreknowledge, but i confess to not knowing what His foreknowledge is. I can't declare that God fore knowingly creates some people to be damned. IF it turns out that some people do end up damned, I concur that it will be the result of our actions rather than Gods foreknowing. Does it not make sense that a Creator of all that is seen and unseen who by definition transcends time would not know what is to come, however? We are only responsible with our behavior in the present moment, however, so we cannot know or determine what God would choose to know or be able to know. Our speculations about Gods modus operendi are just speculations.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by jar, posted 07-21-2007 9:57 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 141 by jar, posted 09-18-2007 9:52 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 142 of 675 (423021)
09-19-2007 10:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 141 by jar
09-18-2007 9:52 PM
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Re: Foreknowledge remix
This is a good question. Does God create every single darned thing that we can list? In other words, does God create the very train of thought that I am now attempting to verbalize? I shall say not! (I could be wrong, however!  )
Does God directly and continually create the new stars that we observe forming in the known universe? (Or did She set the process in motion? ) Do you see what I mean? These are questions that I cannot answer. On a cosmic Job Resume, what are the specific qualifications and duties of a Creator? 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 141 by jar, posted 09-18-2007 9:52 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 143 by jar, posted 09-19-2007 12:12 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 144 of 675 (423209)
09-20-2007 8:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 143 by jar
09-19-2007 12:12 PM
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Re: Foreknowledge remix
Jar writes: Does God create the critter? Indirectly, yes. God is the Creator of all that is seen and unseen. As a qualifier and again...(this is not irrelevant ) God does not create our thoughts. We do. IMB
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 143 by jar, posted 09-19-2007 12:12 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 145 by jar, posted 09-20-2007 11:26 AM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 146 by jar, posted 09-22-2007 2:35 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 148 of 675 (423641)
09-23-2007 12:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 146 by jar
09-22-2007 2:35 PM
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Re: The Evil theology of Dr. James Montgomery Boice
Jar writes: JMB's god creates all. JMBs god then picks from what he has created and individually grants salvation. However, JMB's god still created all. It is the old image of the drought de seigneur, the feudal idea that the noble has total rights over those under him to use, kill, rape, pillage as he wishes. JMB's god is but a reversion to that old idea, one that certainly was abandoned by the mid 1700s everywhere but in religion. It is the old idea that your life is only continued by the whim of the overlord and so forfeit at that overlord's whim. I still find it hard to get used to the idea of a God (or human map of God) that is rational and non-dogmatic. Are you thus saying that God creates humans and has no foreknowledge of our eventual destiny? If that is true, it seemingly limits God from being in the future as well as the past and present. (or maybe its just our lack of comprehension and perspective. Perhaps we are unable to declare the future....on behalf of ourselves or God.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 146 by jar, posted 09-22-2007 2:35 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 149 by jar, posted 09-23-2007 1:02 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 150 of 675 (423820)
09-24-2007 1:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 149 by jar
09-23-2007 1:02 PM
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Re: The Evil theology of Dr. James Montgomery Boice
I really have not listened to much of what JMB says recently. I used to listen to him a few years ago, but he died and now I see his sermons online. I am still learning how to discriminate what is actually said from what is meant or the implications thereof. If you have any suggested online sermons for me to check out, pass them along.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 149 by jar, posted 09-23-2007 1:02 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 151 by jar, posted 09-24-2007 1:43 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 152 of 675 (424005)
09-25-2007 5:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 151 by jar
09-24-2007 1:43 PM
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Reading?
What good is it gonna do to read a bunch of human philosophical opinions? I realize that a broad and well rounded educational experience allows one to be less of a narrow minded and biased critical thinker, but surely in this era, multi media such as film and broadcasts are another way to transmit information. Personally, I have recently listened to the following:
Colorado Public Radio Ravi Zacharias I know that Ravi is controversial, but don't tell me that he is yet another on your list or irrelevant theobabblists. Edited by Phat, : correctomundo
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 151 by jar, posted 09-24-2007 1:43 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 153 by jar, posted 09-25-2007 5:34 AM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 154 by Rrhain, posted 09-25-2007 6:04 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 155 of 675 (424443)
09-27-2007 12:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 153 by jar
09-25-2007 5:34 AM
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Bishop Spong
This was an interesting item that i received in my e-mail:
Bishop Spong Q & A: Renee from the Internet writes: I was a Christian once - for about 18 years, or most of my adult life. But then I read the Bible honestly and realized it was mostly evil. I am now Pagan/Hindu and will never be a Christian again. I know you agree that there is much evil in the Bible. You even reject basic Christian doctrines like being born in sin, the vicarious sacrifice of Jesus' blood for those who believe and heaven and hell. How then are you still a Christian? The depiction of Satan in the Bible is far better that the depiction of God. If the Bible reflects God in any way truly, then he is a monster and Satan is a hero for rebelling. Don't you agree? So, why are you still a Christian? Bishop Spong replied: Dear Renee, No, I do not agree. Of course, there are parts of the Bible that reflect tribal hatred and portray God as a vindictive ogre. I point them out constantly in this column and in my books. However, that fact does not render the core message of the Bible to be either wrong or irrelevant. The Bible defines God as love in the book of Hosea. The Bible defines God as justice in the book of Amos. The Bible asserts that proper liturgy is not God's desire but proper lives that "do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God" are. That is the message of Micah. The Bible stretches the tribal deity of its own limited past into a universal presence in the book of Malachi. The Bible enjoins us to rise to ever new levels of humanity in Jesus' exhortations to love your enemies and to bless those who persecute you. So I study the Bible daily and treasure it as a resource. In three quick sets of statements, I cherish the Bible because 1. It affirms that my life is holy and that all of us were created in God's image.
2. It proclaims that I am loved no matter what I do or who I am.
3. It calls me to be all that I can be. Please note the Trinitarian formula, for that is what I mean when I acknowledge God as Father (creator), Son (fully loving life), and Holy Spirit (life giver). I do not worship the Bible. I do not regard it as the inerrant word of God. I know its content far too well for that to be a possibility. I accept the Bible for what it is, the chronicle of a faith story that grows as people journey through time, seeking to understand their God experience. The things you call basic Christian doctrines like "being born in sin" or the "vicarious sacrifice of Jesus' blood for those who believe" and "heaven and hell" are not basic Christian doctrines to me at all. They are various theories developed by a behavior-controlling religious institution designated to frighten people or to make them pliable. There is no sense of hell in Paul, for example, and the vicarious sacrifice as the interpretation of the cross appears not to be something that Jesus taught but the message of the Jewish Day of Atonement being literalized and applied to Jesus by a later generation of Christians. Only then did Jesus become the new sacrificed Lamb of God. I have no desire to worship a God who requires the death of Jesus as the means of achieving salvation. Sadism is hardly a Godlike attribute, neither is the victim's masochistic pleasure in being crucified. That idea of salvation is simply not consistent with the message of the Fourth Gospel that the purpose of Jesus was to give life abundantly. So I suggest that the Christianity you reject is not Christianity at all, but a terrible distortion that we all need to reject. Christianity, as I understand it, is far more than that. I hope you will find someday a church that does not distort Christianity, as your present experience seems to indicate. John Shelby Spong He seems to share some of the views that assert that Christianity itself is not evil...its just the maps some of us follow!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 153 by jar, posted 09-25-2007 5:34 AM | | jar has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 156 of 675 (424468)
09-27-2007 5:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 153 by jar
09-25-2007 5:34 AM
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Theologians and Theobabble
Ravi may be a book seller as are most of the CCOI Christians, but his website is not entirely a storefront. Among the intersting items that I found available free there was a series of debates between Theologian Alister McGrath and Sir. Richard Dawkins. both of whom are respected members of their disciplines at Oxford University.
Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath (Mp3) Dawkins - McGrath debate (part 1 of 2) Richard Dawkins and Alister McGrath (Mp3) Dawkins - McGrath debate (part 2 of 2) You can't say that McGrath is a Theological huckster. He is no slouch, and while I respect Sir. Richard, I think that McGrath gave him a good debate. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 153 by jar, posted 09-25-2007 5:34 AM | | jar has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 158 of 675 (435300)
11-20-2007 10:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 157 by jar
09-27-2007 9:42 AM
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Does God much care if we talk to Her?
jar writes: Is there anything in either of those posts to discuss or debate? Yes, as a matter of fact.
Spong writes: I do not worship the Bible. I do not regard it as the inerrant word of God. I know its content far too well for that to be a possibility. I accept the Bible for what it is, the chronicle of a faith story that grows as people journey through time, seeking to understand their God experience. Spong speaks of the Bible as a story of people throughout time seeking to understand their God experience. So is God knowable or not? Do you personally ever believe that when you are saying a prayer that it is being heard by God or do you consider the idea irrelevant?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 157 by jar, posted 09-27-2007 9:42 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 159 by jar, posted 11-20-2007 11:00 AM | | Phat has replied |
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