The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance

Jar is giving his usual weird interpretation of the Bible, so although I know it's futile, here's the truth. The Bible is an amazing linear narrative by over forty writers over about 1500 years, in which all the historical reports and all the teachings point to the Messiah Jesus Christ. It does this by showing the sinfulness of all human beings and their need of a Savior as well as by foreshadowing the character of the Savior to come.

The ordinary reader never sees this, it's given by the Holy Spirit to Bible believers. The average reader of the Book of Ruth gets no inkling of the fact that it points to the Messiah. The average reader of the Book of Esther even may miss that it's all about God's actions in human affairs, all aimed toward the salvation of His people. The first few chapters of Genesis set the stage for a future Savior so that all those who reject it in favor of a belief in evolution have obscured the foundation of the whole thing. All the Judges in the Book of Judges and all the prophets from Moses through Samuel through Elijah through Malachi represent and illuminate some facet of the work of the expected Messiah.

Even the prophets didn't understand all the implications of what they were writing down of what God was telling them (Peter says this in the NT). All this is evidence that the whole thing was ultimately authored by God Himself.

When Jesus comes He is the fulfillment of all those pointers in the Old Testament. In the book of Luke he explains to the travelers on the road to Emmaus that all the scripture points to the Messiah. Not many understood their own scriptures so missed it at the time, but a few did get it: Anna and Simeon who spent their lives in prayer and worship represent those who understood the Times. Again, putting it all together as the seamless whole it really is takes the guidance of the Holy Spirit who is given to those who believe. The unconverted mind will never get it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Why do you think that God screwed over the Jews so bad?

The way you have it, He was telling them all this stuff thousands of years ago and they were believing it without knowing that what they thought God was saying to them was actually a secretly embedded code for people to figure out thousands of years later.

Meanwhile, the Jews were basing their lifestyles and religion on what God had actually said to them, as opposed to the future secret message that they didn't even know about.

God has the gall to call them his "chosen people" while he's secretly using their entire culture as a set-up for a group of totally unrelated people thousands of years in the future to receive these hidden messages that they need magical powers to uncover.

And nowadays they have to accept that their entire culture and religion was just plain wrong the whole time and instead they have to swallow that there was secret message that was cleverly hidden within their own teachings for thousands of years that God purposefully disguised from them so that a small portion of their adversaries would get to know the real truth about all the things that God really had going on while he was calling them His chosen people for centuries.

God tricked them into believing an entire religion that was wrong just so that He could reveal a hidden message to unrelated people thousands of years in the future.

That's a terrible thing to do to a whole culture of people.

Why do you think that God did that to the Jews?

Faith writes: Even the prophets didn't understand all the implications of what they were writing down of what God was telling them (Peter says this in the NT).

I think Peter said practically the opposite:

quote:

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2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

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Prophecy isn't of much use if people don't understand it. In fact, the prophets were mostly telling people what they already knew but didn't want to hear.

Still with you sir.

I am sure I will have many questions after your next post.

Mal. x

Fine, then let's move on.

The Christian Cult of Ignorance makes many really silly claims about the bible like "The Bible is an amazing linear narrative by over forty writers over about 1500 years, in which all the historical reports and all the teachings point to the Messiah Jesus Christ." when the facts are that we honestly don't have a clue how many writers there were, who most of the writers were, over what period the stories were written and evolved and that not one of the claimed Old Testament references to Jesus stands up to examination.

They make claims like "Even the prophets didn't understand all the implications of what they were writing down of what God was telling them (Peter says this in the NT). All this is evidence that the whole thing was ultimately authored by God Himself." which only make the God character look truly stupid.

The Bible (remember there is no such thing as "The Bible™") is simply a human creation.

Christianity is a human creation.

Christianity has been spread mostly through force and coercion but also marketing.

Christianity has almost nothing to do with Jesus and Jesus was never a Christian anyway.

But I'm a Christian.

Most likely that is a result of family and environment but ultimately it's still a matter of personal decision.

I grew up in a nominally Christian society, in a Christian family and was educated in a Christian school.

Christianity is a map; it is not the territory itself. Christianity is also just one such map (actually one set of such maps) as is and Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Judaism, Satanism, Hinduism are also maps.

It's important to keep the distinction in the forefront, we are dealing with maps not the territory.

As mentioned above, Christianity is actually a whole set of maps, some old, outdated, filled with errors; others more recent with fewer errors and omissions but they are all still just maps and those using them must always test the map against reality. The fact that the map shows a bridge does not mean the bridge is there, that the road is not under construction, that there are not better routes to take.

The wise traveler will study several different maps and will note that some of the maps may be more accurate in some areas and less accurate in others and will then adopt the best from each.

But all of the maps are still just maps and not the territory and all will be wrong, incomplete, have errors, be outdated and at times irrelevant. It is the traveler's duty to try to identify those errors, fill in the places where it is incomplete, correct where it is wrong and restore relevance.

Still with me?

Edited by jar, : appalin grmmer

Faith writes: Even the prophets didn't understand all the implications of what they were writing down of what God was telling them (Peter says this in the NT). ringo writes: I think Peter said practically the opposite: 2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

That isn't the passage I had in mind, but this one:

1 Peter 1:10 -12 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

They had to "search diligently" to get a basic understanding of their own prophecies, the coming of Christ, the timing of His coming and the meaning of His salvation, which they could see was given to a people in the far future and not themselves. Even the angels are said not to understand these things but desire to look into them.

ringo writes: Prophecy isn't of much use if people don't understand it. In fact, the prophets were mostly telling people what they already knew but didn't want to hear.

That's true of their indictment of the Israelites for their failures to keep God's Law, but not of their foreshadowings of future events. It is very clear in the New Testament how little was understood by the majority, and even the disciples didn't fully grasp the prophecies. Even John the Baptist didn't since he had to ask if Jesus was really the one prophesied or should they wait for another.

Prophecy is at least there for us to look back on and that alone should make us appreciate how the Bible is God's word, showing a knowledge of the meaning of events that is above the knowledge of all its human participants.

But also in the case of so many missing the time of the first coming of Christ it serves as a reminder to stay alert to the signs of the second coming so we won't miss that one.

Hi Jar.

My spinning head had to happen some time.

Christianity has almost nothing to do with Jesus and Jesus was never a Christian anyway.

I have not heard this definition of Christianity before, and i have read a lot about Christianity. Christianity is named after Jesus THE Christ, so I would say any definition of Christianity would need this belief.

But I'm a Christian.

You are a Christian that does not believe Jesus died for your sins and was not God in the human form? Is this a correct definition?

Christianity is a map; it is not the territory itself. Christianity is also just one such map (actually one set of such maps) as is Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Judaism, Satanism, Hinduism are also maps.

I do find this confusing. Are you saying that there is a God and all these different religions have clues to the real identity of this God?

It's important to keep the distinction in the forefront, we are dealing with maps not the territory.

I am thinking that you are saying that all these religions are untrue but all have some truth within them?

As mentioned above, Christianity is actually a whole set of maps, some old, outdated, filled with errors; others more recent with fewer errors and omissions but they are all still just maps and those using them must always test the map against reality.

I am not sure how spiritual truths can be tested against 'reality'. I think they can only be believed or not believed. Reality tells us a man cannot die for 3 days and come back to life but this is the foundation of Christianity and Christians need to have faith that this is true. St. Paul states this.

The fact that the map shows a bridge does not mean the bridge is there, that the road is not under construction, that there are not better routes to take.

So how does one know for sure if the bridge is there or not? :-?

The wise traveler will study several different maps and will note that some of the maps may be more accurate in some areas and less accurate in others and will then adopt the best from each.

I am so sorry but I do not understand this either. If you have a good enough map then why bother with any others?

I do understand this, but billions of people do not do what you are doing and appear happy. This does not mean you are incorrect I know, but why call yourself a Christian and not a Buddhist, or a Muslim, or a Hindu?

Also, what is making my mind explode is that to make sure you have not missed any of the total map you would need to know the religious texts of maybe countless religions to get to the truth.

I think there are far too many to be an expert on each, and you will not be allowed to reject the silly ones like the Book of Mormon because it may have some truth in it.

I am not saying you are wrong, I just think there are many problems IMO.

Still with me?

I am still with you along with my sore head

Thank you for being patient.

Mal. x

You're asking all the right question and maybe I can answer them. At least I will try.

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Christianity has almost nothing to do with Jesus and Jesus was never a Christian anyway.

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Jesus was born into a Jewish family, raised in Jewish traditions and died as a Jew. His whole ministry was to the Jews as one of them.

Christianity is something else entirely, partially a creation of Paul (who never even met Jesus) but primarily the product of the unknown redactors, editors, politicians, counsel members, Emperors, propagandists, writers and apologists over the several thousand years since Jesus ministry.

Mal writes: You are a Christian that does not believe Jesus died for your sins and was not God in the human form? Is this a correct definition?

Not quite.

I believe that Jesus, while living among us, was 100% human, not god in human costume, not chimera, but just plain human. If Jesus was not just human when among us then what happened has little meaning or worth to humans.

But if Jesus was God being made man, nothing but a man, not that which created all that is, seen and unseen but a human baby, unable to focus his eyes, unable to feed himself or control his bowels or go potty or walk or crawl or talk, suffering from cold and heat and hunger and pain and ignorant and teething and falling down and scuffing his knees and being mocked then that would be a real sacrifice.

I believe that Jesus is a sacrifice for us, but that the sacrifice is God becoming only man to minister to us, not that blood sacrifice of his death. There are many reasons for my belief. First, that would just make God look stupid. A God that created all that is, seen and unseen, with the ability and desire to forgive human sins certainly doesn't need some farcical stage play as payment. Second, there was nothing unique or even unusual about Jesus death; in fact at least two others died the same way at the same place on the same day.

Mal writes: jar writes: Christianity is a map; it is not the territory itself. Christianity is also just one such map (actually one set of such maps) as is Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Judaism, Satanism, Hinduism are also maps. I do find this confusing. Are you saying that there is a God and all these different religions have clues to the real identity of this God?

Almost. I believe all religions are pretty much clueless when it comes to the identity, nature or description of GOD. Instead we each create Gods and gods that meet our current belief systems. This has always been going on as I pointed out with the two totally different Gods described in Genesis 1 and Genesis2&3.

Mal writes: jar writes: It's important to keep the distinction in the forefront, we are dealing with maps not the territory. I am thinking that you are saying that all these religions are untrue but all have some truth within them?

Yes, but probably not any spiritual truths.

An example that might help is found in the Great Commandment.

Jesus is asked what is important and his reply is first to love God. But he stops there. He offers no clue of what god or how to Love that critter. Then he goes on to the second part where he actually tells us what to do and how to do it.

Love others as we love ourselves.

Jesus ministry is actually filled with examples of doing, feeding the hungry, teaching the ignorant, suffering little children, comforting the sorrowful, healing the sick. Jesus ministry deals with how we relate to other humans. In Luke 4 there is a great example often ignored where he tells the Jews that they are NOT God's chosen people and that God loves even those who do not worship the Hebraic version of God.

Luke 4 writes: 25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

The Christian Cult of Ignorance often uses this to say that Jesus came for the Gentiles and those that believe in "Jesus" but in doing so they miss the meaning and message totally.

GOD created all that is seen, and unseen.

The truths we need to take from Christianity and in fact all religions are those simple basics, that we are all GOD's creation, that we need to try to do what is right and live as though our behavior will be judged.

Matthew 25 is another important but too often ignored teaching. In it Jesus is explaining the fate of all and he remarks again that belief in him is NOT the criteria for judgement but rather behaviors and in fact that those who are his followers may well fail come judgement.

Matt 25 writes: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Note nowhere in all of that are beliefs mentioned and in fact it is the Goats who are surprised because they have never failed to "do for Jesus".

The reality though if any one thinks about it is that there is nothing we has humans can do for God or Jesus. They do not need our help. We can though do for other humans.

Mal writes: I am not sure how spiritual truths can be tested against 'reality'. I think they can only be believed or not believed. Reality tells us a man cannot die for 3 days and come back to life but this is the foundation of Christianity and Christians need to have faith that this is true. St. Paul states this.

St Paul said a lot of really silly stuff but he was both a product of his era and culture and a fanatic, but you are right. Spiritual stuff cannot be tested. But the important stuff, our behavior, can be tested.

Mal writes: jar writes: The fact that the map shows a bridge does not mean the bridge is there, that the road is not under construction, that there are not better routes to take. So how does one know for sure if the bridge is there or not? :-?

You look yourself before crossing.

Mal writes: jar writes: The wise traveler will study several different maps and will note that some of the maps may be more accurate in some areas and less accurate in others and will then adopt the best from each. I am so sorry but I do not understand this either. If you have a good enough map then why bother with any others?

Remember, the only way to test your map is against reality but there are other indicators. When was the map updated? Was the update based on "feet on the ground" or on what other maps claimed?

Mal writes: I do understand this, but billions of people do not do what you are doing and appear happy. This does not mean you are incorrect I know, but why call yourself a Christian and not a Buddhist, or a Muslim, or a Hindu? Also, what is making my mind explode is that to make sure you have not missed any of the total map you would need to know the religious texts of maybe countless religions to get to the truth. I think there are far too many to be an expert on each, and you will not be allowed to reject the silly ones like the Book of Mormon because it may have some truth in it.

What I posit ain't easy and requires effort, a willingness to question, doubt, criticize what you are told and a desire as well as the effort to examine beyond your own backyard. You can never be an expert nor do I claim to be an expert but I was fortunate enough to have been raised in a Christian culture that dis question, doubt, criticize what was being sold and encouraged examination of other points of view.

I grew up as the only goyem family in a Jewish neighborhood and so celebrated with them at their holidays (hey, school closed; who am I to blow against the wind) and at the Episcopal school we studied other religions in many subjects but in Sacred Studies in particular we were assigned stuff like the writings of Confucius and Mencius, the Tao Ching and the Eight Fold Path, at home we had a copy of the Book of the Dead as well as Song of Hiawatha and the Norse, Greek and Roman myths, later I had a friend who exposed me to Taoism and another whole helped me understand a few of the Hindu sects. A big influence as a child was Kipling (Kim in particular but also The Just So Stories) and Mark Twain (Mysterious Stranger).

I know this is long yet by necessity abbreviated so feel free to ask for anything else.

Also please understand that I am almost certain with a very, very high degree of confidence that all my beliefs are wrong but so far I have not found anything better.

Faith writes: That isn't the passage I had in mind, but this one: 1 Peter 1:10 -12

Are you suggesting that Peter changed his mind between his first epistle and his second? Otherwise, I'd say that "no private interpretation" trumps "searching diligently".

Faith writes: They had to "search diligently" to get a basic understanding of their own prophecies, the coming of Christ, the timing of His coming and the meaning of His salvation, which they could see was given to a people in the far future and not themselves.

Even your own example doesn't say anything like that.

Faith writes: That's true of their indictment of the Israelites for their failures to keep God's Law, but not of their foreshadowings of future events.

The problem is that the foreshadowing you claim just isn't there.

Faith writes: It is very clear in the New Testament how little was understood by the majority, and even the disciples didn't fully grasp the prophecies.

I know you'd like to think that you know more than the people in the New Testament did, but there's no evidence that you do.

jar writes: Not one word of any Bible was written for or to people living today.

Not sure if I agree. Michaelangelo may well have never painted a painting that was "meant" to be seen by people alive today...and yet we do view his great paintings and they inspire us arguably as much as they did the intended audience.

Who determines what is for us and/or what is addressed to us?

If the author and/or artist is long since gone, the determination is made by us ourselves.

If the author happened to be alive (eternally, even) we still determine what is written for us and what is written to us.

Phat writes: Who determines what is for us and/or what is addressed to us?

The author.

Phat writes: If the author and/or artist is long since gone, the determination is made by us ourselves. If the author happened to be alive (eternally, even) we still determine what is written for us and what is written to us.

We can of course make up anything, even really silly stuff.

Phat writes: If the author and/or artist is long since gone, the determination is made by us ourselves.

So, when Jesus called the Pharisees a "generation of vipers", do you include yourself in that generation? At what point do you ignore what He actually said?

If the shoe fits....

jar writes: So you are saying that God does not know what you will think?

If God knows me, God allows me. I freely decide what i will think. God is hopefully present in that moment of decision. I believe that God is present in the future as well as the present. God is present before I arrive at that moment.

Phat writes: If God knows me, God allows me. I freely decide what i will think. God is hopefully present in that moment of decision. I believe that God is present in the future as well as the present. God is present before I arrive at that moment.

That's still just word salad and a cop out instead of attempting to answer the question.

So you are saying that God does not know what you will think?