The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance

jar writes: So you are saying that God does not know what you will think?

I will answer your question after asking you a question. Does God know what we are thinking at the present moment?

Phat writes: I will answer your question after asking you a question. Does God know what we are thinking at the present moment?

I have absolutely no way to know the answer and cannot see how it could in anyway be relevant.

Phat writes: If the shoe fits....

The point is: How do you decide whether you're being offered a shoe? Do you go down the street yanking people's shoes off to see if they fit you?

jar writes: I have absolutely no way to know the answer and cannot see how it could in anyway be relevant.

perhaps God feels the same way and thus sees no relevance in knowing what we will decide.

So yet again you refuse to answer the question even after claiming you would.

So you are saying that God does not know what you will think?

jar writes: So yet again you refuse to answer the question even after claiming you would. So you are saying that God does not know what you will think?

Honestly I dont know.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

If that is true, what does that say about your assertion of being in some communion with God or Jesus?

You want me to say that I don't know if I have such a communion nor can I understand what it even means. Don't you! I will say that it (the communion) is a blessed hope. I base it on the words of your favorite Gospel... John. You have mentioned before how John was the step child of the Gospels and of how the message was changed. To me, it may well have more sizzle, but it is nevertheless still steak.

I agree with Faith in this argument. If Loving your neighbor as yourself" was the summation of the message...feeding, clothing, encouraging others...then there would have been no need for the first part.

The message is not just to go simply do. I have no problem with good works. I have no problem with the argument that doing good works proves that one believes the message...EXCEPT...that loving God...loving and knowing and talking with and listening to the Risen Christ is as essential.

Maybe a lot of goats left behind are Christians, I dunno.

Phat writes: You want me to say that I don't know if I have such a communion nor can I understand what it even means. Don't you!

No, not at all. I have never asked you to do that or even suggested you should do that.

Phat writes: I will say that it (the communion) is a blessed hope.

Okay, but what does that even mean? Do you mean you hope you are actually having some communion?

Do you mean you hope you are actually having some communion?

My relationship with God--through Jesus Christ--is not simply some fervent wish.
I will reevaluate your question again, since much has changed in my life and my perspective in the past year. I have no doubt in my mind that God is alive through jesus Christ.

I have seen many examples of good and bad human behavior. Granted I cannot prove that theses observations--both in myself and others--were caused by God and there is of course no way to prove it. For me, evidence in the strict sense is not important. My belief is confirmed through my daily experience and I will admit to a degree of confirmation bias.
So to answer your question, yes I do have hope.

jar,addressing Faith writes: How do you know it is from "Him" particularly when the Bible itself is so filled with errors, falsehoods, contradictions and irrelevancies? After all the devil can quote scripture.

Lets say that the Bible is as you say. If so, why would I expect a world that is any different? The world itself and the modern media and the behavior of people on the street and in general is filled with errors,falsehoods,contradictions, and irrelevancies. Personally, I do not see the Bible as you see it. I value what is written more than I do what is said critically regarding the books. I don't believe that God and Christianity and belief itself are mere creations of the collective human mind.

jar,addressing faith writes: What if I belong to a chapter of Club Christian that does not require I throw away my brain before entering?

You are free to reason as you like. I would advise you not to hold logic, reason, and reality in a higher regard than GOD. (unless logic, reason, reality and socratic wisdom are your conception of GOD.)

My issue is not with my mind. My issue is with my heart.

jar writes: ...no Bible is one book, one story, one tale but rather an anthology of anthologies written by people of different cultures, eras and mythos for people living in different eras, cultures and mythos. Not one word of any Bible was written for or to people living today. Of course that does not mean that the stories cannot be relevant today.

Where you and I differ is the attribution of the source. You believe that humans invented the stories. I don't.

So the Bible, whichever canon is being considered is a collection of writings done by humans of several evolving belief systems that were later selected by other humans, edited by other humans and compiled by other humans.

And the Bible is also interpreted by humans. Some actually believe in a God who makes mistakes. The reason this makes sense to you is because you also believe that the God(s) in the bible are entirely human creations. I do not share this belief.

So the picture we should get from the various Bibles and Bible stories is one of evolution, of changing societies, beliefs, behavior and mythos.

The picture you get is not the picture we should get.

So the Old Testament is a look at the evolving creation called Judaism and reflects many of the challenges, conflicts and differences of something as many faceted as Judaism.

I would argue that the Jewish culture was trying to understand who God was. The question that might be asked is whether the evidence shows that the culture created God or whether God actually existed and was attempting to teach a culture how to behave...even as he foreknew that they would be involved in many wars. People blame god for killing innocents. And yet the evidence shows that it was the people who carried it out.

The New Testament has the similarities of being works written by and edited by and redacted by and canonized by other unknown people over several hundred years.

The question I would ask is if we can determine that the writers were writing of their own imagination and motive or whether they were reporting something else.

The Bible (remember there is no such thing as "The Bible™") is simply a human creation. Christianity is a human creation.

You present a good case, but I wont buy what you are selling. I believe that the Bible was inspired by God and that while we all are human, the Creator of the universe desires communion with us.

They make claims like "Even the prophets didn't understand all the implications of what they were writing down of what God was telling them (Peter says this in the NT). All this is evidence that the whole thing was ultimately authored by God Himself." which only make the God character look truly stupid.

If anyone looks stupid, it is not God. God authors your intelligence. He defined you before you were old enough to think to define Him.

Christianity has almost nothing to do with Jesus and Jesus was never a Christian anyway. But I'm a Christian. Most likely that is a result of family and environment but ultimately it's still a matter of personal decision.

Explain to me how you would want to decide to be a Christian if Jesus was not a Christian? Sounds like you are marketing a new religion here.

Edited by Phat, : fixed

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Phat writes: jar writes: Christianity has almost nothing to do with Jesus and Jesus was never a Christian anyway. But I'm a Christian. Most likely that is a result of family and environment but ultimately it's still a matter of personal decision. Explain to me how you would want to decide to be a Christian if Jesus was not a Christian?

What does the fact the Jesus was never a Christian have to do with the religion named after Jesus? Jesus was born a Jew, raised as a Jew, preached to Jews, lived as a Jew, tried to reform Judaism and died as a Jew.

Christianity evolved, was created by many many people over a period of hundreds of years after Jesus died.

I explained my membership to you many times. I was raised in a Christian family and educated in a Christian environment and have spent all of my life within that movement. It's not so much a matter of what I want as what I was exposed to and a life path that at least for me makes sense. A call to try to do what I can for those around me simply makes sense.

OK thats an honest answer.

No, not at all. The passages Christains claim to be about Jesus follow a specific pattern, and the vast majority fit one or more of the below categories

1) Mistranslated
2) Out of context.
3) Shoe horned into place.
4) Written to, after the fact
5) Self full filling.
Quite a number of the Christian interpretations are quite dishonest as a matter of fact

jar writes: But that simply shows you totally misunderstand the argument, so let me try once again. Is God the Creator?

Yes. The God i worship is the Creator of all seen and unseen. The God I worship created Lucifer also, who chose to become Satan. I realize I'm describing God as I believe Him to be.

jar writes: Does God create everything that is, seen and unseen?

Yes.
As a side-note, you and I disagree on the Gods we market. Perhaps we can find common ground. Lets pick up our foreknowledge/freewill argument again. You ask the questions.

Edited by Phat, : fixed spelling+added