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Author
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Topic: EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed - Science Under Attack
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 216 of 438 (499432)
02-18-2009 4:10 PM
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Expelled arrives in Cumberland, WI tonight
A local church is putting on a free showing tonight. Last week the local weekly paper printed an article which was basically a reprint of a press release based on the review of the movie in answersingenesis.com. The whole article sounded like a press release from the the Discovery Institute. We all know what a pack of liars they are. I wrote a letter to the editor pointing out the lies, fallacies and half truths. It should be published today. This is a small town so it should get some responses. I doubt many if any will be in support of my view, but I couldn't just let nothing be said.
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 218 of 438 (499638)
02-19-2009 2:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 217 by Stile
02-19-2009 2:12 PM
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Re: Expelled arrives in Cumberland, WI tonight
Well they published my letter. Now to get the feedback or more likely the backlash. We are fairly new in the area, so I don't think many people are familiar with my religious, political and social views. My wife has a rather prominent position in town so I was a little concerned about a letter to the editor. She was quite supportive in me writing the letter. Since we have different last names she might not get much feedback, except from people that know us personally.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 217 by Stile, posted 02-19-2009 2:12 PM | | Stile has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 219 of 438 (500480)
02-26-2009 4:01 PM
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Reply to my letter
Well an Ider (actually it seems a YEC) responded to my letter to the paper. If your interested I posted my letter, the news article, flyer and the response on my blog. Lots of fallacies and distortions in the response. Blog not found
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Re: funding not mentioned in Expelled
Around here it isn't the Baptists as much as the Missouri Synod Lutherans. These are not like your classic easy going Garrison Keillor, Lake Woebegon lutherans. These Lutherans are bible literalists and strongly proclaim inerrancy.
The Bible is God's inerrant and infallible Word, in which He reveals His Law and His Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. It is the sole rule and norm for Christian doctrine. Missouri Synod Web Site
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 233 of 438 (501254)
03-05-2009 12:19 PM
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Pastor of church that sponsored movie responds
Unfortunately the local newspaper does not archive letters so this will disappear from their site next week.
Link Here are some choice comments from the letter. I am posting the letter here also, so that there is some sort of permanent digital record.
It is worth noting that atheism is a type of religion totally dependent upon evolution as an undergirding doctrine. Christianity is not nearly as dependent upon ID or creation, in the sense that many Christians believe that evolution was God’s way of creating (theistic evolution). That is not my belief, and there are serious problems with that position, in my view, but the point is that there are Christian evolutionists, but there is not one atheistic creationist in existence! This would explain why atheists are fighting so hard to be rid of ID. It is said the COURTS have decided that ID is not science. That is true. But the Supreme Court also ruled 152 years ago in favor of slavery (Dred Scott Decision). Just because the court says it doesn’t make it right! Regarding Nazism and evolution, watch the movie and judge for yourself. Darwinism was not sufficient for the holocaust, says Berlinski, but it was necessary. Certainly Darwinism contributed to an earlier holocaust horror against Australian aborigines in the early 20th century (not mentioned in the movie). Unfortunately, I have been requested by my wife not to respond. In a small town a professional cannot afford to alienate any part of the population.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 234 by Percy, posted 03-05-2009 2:53 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 235 of 438 (501304)
03-05-2009 3:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 234 by Percy
03-05-2009 2:53 PM
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Letter info
Here is link to the letters page. They do require a hard copy(no emails)and it has to be signed and a phone # so they can verify. It will be interesting to see if and what letters they publish. Also if you do send a letter can you either leave a comment here or email me a copy. bfuente@gmail.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 234 by Percy, posted 03-05-2009 2:53 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Re: Intelligent Design
Actually, I suspect this really boils down to what was stated in the Declaration of Independence. It goes something like this, "We are endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." So if science can eliminate "our creator", who is left to grant US citizens those rights? You do realize that the Declaration of Independence is not a US document, don't you. It has no standing in US jurisprudence. The USA was not founded until the adoption of the Constitution in 1787. Using your logic anything in the Articles of Confederation should be accepted now also. Nowhere does any US founding document mention anything about any god giving any rights.
Most of the American people want ID taught along with Darwinian evolution. I always warn people about using words like "most". I venture to guess "most" americans don't have an idea what ID even is. If you are going to use "most" you need to back it up with legitimate evidence.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Re: Intelligent Design
"You don't need God anymore, you have us Democrats." (Nancy Pelosi, 2006) Come on cough up the source. Oh was it a chain email with Democratic quotes? Gee, did you even research any of them? They are all misquotes or impossible to find an original source. Sort of sounds like ID doesn't it.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 265 by traderdrew, posted 07-27-2009 12:20 PM | | traderdrew has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Re: Intelligent Design
Your quote from Message 265The Declaration was a letter to and about King George of England. Since it was a declaration of independence, the founders went on to write the Constitution. "You don't need God anymore, you have us Democrats." (Nancy Pelosi, 2006) Your original quote from Message 263Actually, I suspect this really boils down to what was stated in the Declaration of Independence. It goes something like this, "We are endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." So if science can eliminate "our creator", who is left to grant US citizens those rights? You sir, are the one that brought politics into this. Also, if you look into what this thread is really about it is about the movie Expelled and the attack on science. That sir is politics. You reference a lame unattributable quote after you make a lame argument about the Declaration of Independence and then, when you are called on them you accuse me of misrepresenting the argument? How dare you. Lets get on topic and how about you provide the source for the quote. Or at least admit you have no source other than some email you received. Fair enough??
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Re: Intelligent Design
You sound like a little kid pointing a finger at me. You requested I go to another forum because you did not like the fact that I don't accept your prattle blindly. I was simply pointing out that I was responding to a line of discusssion you brought up. If you do not like the responses that is your problem not mine. So therefore, I assume you are not going to address any of the false arguments and false quotes you posted. You do not like being called out that you are making lame arguments and lies, so you resort to personal attacks. This is your typical MO. I would like you to at least try to address my rebuttals to your arguments. Do you accept that fact that your reference the Declaration of Independence to support ID was not a very sound argument, and are you going to provide your source for the Nancy Pelosi quote.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 357 by traderdrew, posted 08-02-2009 1:17 PM | | traderdrew has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Re: Creation "science" again
That suits me just fine. I just haven't found the logic that says you can call ID a religion when ID hasn't informed us of any religious rituals to perform. Once again, advocates of ID can either be Jewish, Muslim, or Christian or even agnostic and even atheists-(guided transpermia). Ok I'll bite. Show me any non-christian advocates of ID. Here is a definition for you
Religion - a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. It does not have to have devotional or ritual observances. ID does fit this definition. Evolution does not. The Theory of Evolution says nothing about "the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe", therefore it is not a religion. A number of people that you call evolutionists do follow a religion. As a matter of fact a lot of religious people understand that the Theory of Evolution is based upon scientific fact. You can call it a religion all you want, but that doesn't make it a fact. All it does is diminish your argument and shows that you have nothing to contribute to the debate.
guided transpermia) You have been asked to back this up in the past. Still nothing. Show anything to abck up your assertions.
Message 272In fact some scientists actually believe in guided transpermia because life and the DNA that helps perpetuate it is so complex. This is in fact intelligent design but it isn't ID backed by theism. Who are these scientists? You know what you get when you Google "guided transpermia"? Your posts here. Not much else and definitely nothing by any scientists. So please show me an atheist that is a firm believer in guided transpermia. Sounds quite interesting. I would love to see what evidence they might have. I am sure it will be as riveting and scientific as any other ID argument. I was just want to clarify your positions. 1)ID is science. Still waiting for some sort of proof on that. 2) ID is not at all linked to creationism Wedge document and mission statements of leading ID groups evidently mean nothing. 3) Evolution is a religion. So a lot of christians follow two religions? Or are they not christians if they believe in evolution? 4) The Intelligent Designer you believe in is the god of the christian bible. Does that some it up?
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Re: Creation "science" again
Please do not misrepresent what I say. My original quote is.
So please show me an atheist that is a firm believer in guided transpermia. Sounds quite interesting. I would love to see what evidence they might have. I am sure it will be as riveting and scientific as any other ID argument. You made it sound like I would never accept that there could be an atheist that believed this. In actuality as you can see from the original post I was asking so I could see what kind of evidence they might have. I was quite correct. There is no evidence. I was expecting you to mention Crick. Much more has been made of this in creationist and ID circles than is the reality. There really is no there, there. Crick did propose this as a possibility, but in no way advocated that this IS what happened. At a later date he published an article that had a different view.
quote:
In a retrospective article, Crick and Orgel noted that they had been overly pessimistic about the chances of abiogenesis on Earth when they had assumed that some kind of self-replicating protein-based system was the molecular origin of life[3]. With the discovery of ribozymes it became possible to imagine an RNA world and the origin of life in the form of possibly a single self-replicating polymer that could function as both a genetic molecule and as a source of enzymatic activities.
Source Also, Talkorigins has a good review of what Crick actually said about transpermia.
quote:
Crick's book is about his proposition that life on Earth may have been the result of "directed panspermia." It should be noted that, in the book, he assumes that the aliens who he posits might be "seeding" the universe are, themselves, the product of evolution. In this quote, Crick is simply pointing out how, in the absence of evidence, the appearance of life on Earth might seem like a miracle. But he specifically admits that abiogenesis may have occurred on Earth as a result of ordinary chemical processes that require no resort to outside intelligence. Leaving out that part of it, by cutting off what immediately follows, is deeply dishonest.
I asked for an atheist that was a "firm believer in guided transpermia". Though he brought up the idea, you would be hard pressed to say he was a firm believer. As a matter of fact evidence shows that he later did not stand by the idea. You see this is being objective. Taking in the new evidence and changing your views. That is what scientists like Crick do. Edited by Theodoric, : Spelling, format
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 371 by traderdrew, posted 08-03-2009 2:43 PM | | traderdrew has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 378 of 438 (517994)
08-03-2009 4:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 375 by Percy
08-03-2009 3:49 PM
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Re: Creation "science" again
Actually it is more of the "Make sure you know the evidence" category.
Percy writes: From the "Be careful what you ask for" category:
traderdrew writes: So please show me an atheist that is a firm believer in guided transpermia. Francis Crick is an atheist who also codiscovered DNA in 1953. See page 248 of "Darwin's Black Box" (quoted below) The primary reason Crick subscribes to this unorthodox view is that he judges the undirected origoin of life to be a virtually insurmountable obstacle, but he wants a naturalistic explanation.  Nice job, TD! --Percy The quote from "Darwins Black Box" is not true. If people actually read Crick they will read the full quote. After this
quote:
"An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that, in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle."
Is this
quote:
" . . . so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going. But this should not be taken to imply that there are good reasons to believe that it could not have started on the earth by a perfectly reasonable sequence of fairly ordinary chemical reactions. The plain fact is that the time available was too long, the many microenvironments on the earth's surface too diverse, the various chemical possibilities too numerous and our own knowledge and imagination too feeble to allow us to be able to unravel exactly how it might or might not have happened such a long time ago, especially as we have no experimental evidence from that era to check our ideas against."
(Francis Crick, Life Itself, Its Origin and Nature, 1981, p. 88) Hardly the words of a strong advocate of directed transpermia.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 375 by Percy, posted 08-03-2009 3:49 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 380 by Percy, posted 08-03-2009 7:35 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 381 of 438 (518036)
08-03-2009 8:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 380 by Percy
08-03-2009 7:35 PM
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Re: Creation "science" again
For an example of the Internet's potential for unreliability, try looking up who said, "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt." Let me know what you find. I couldn't wait for TD. So far I find it is attributed to Abraham Lincoln mostly, followed by Mark Twain, a smattering of Winston Churchills and then Socrates has a strong following too. Damn I am usually pretty good at finding original source material on the web. Either there isn't any or it is very obscure. So what is the answer oh sage one.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 380 by Percy, posted 08-03-2009 7:35 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 382 by Percy, posted 08-03-2009 8:23 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Re: Creation "science" again
Going back to guided transpermia, I would say it is non-theistic ID. This is just a red herring. You haven't been able to provide one staunch advocate of directed transpermia. Are there any organizations promoting it? Is anyone trying to get it taught in school? The whole transpermia thing is just an attempt by you to obfuscate the dialogue.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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