Understanding through Discussion

Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8985 total)
43 online now:
CosmicChimp, Kleinman, PaulK, Straggler, Tangle, vimesey (6 members, 37 visitors)
Newest Member: Jerry Johnson
Post Volume: Total: 877,852 Year: 9,600/23,288 Month: 615/1,544 Week: 7/322 Day: 7/58 Hour: 1/0

Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Author Topic:   EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed - Science Under Attack
Member (Idle past 1196 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007

Message 26 of 438 (443991)
12-27-2007 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taz
12-27-2007 5:59 PM

Re: My Personal Reaction
By the way, I'm a physicist not a biologist. That link of yours I don't feel I have the expertise to comment on.

Lemme help you out, Taz.

The first sentence of the abstract:

In spite of an enormous amount of genetic flux in plants and animals, the basic genetic processes and major molecular traits are believed to have persisted essentially unchanged for more than three-and-a-half billion years, and the molecular mechanisms of animal ontogenesis for more than one billion years.


Perhaps Juggs would like to defend this load of horseshit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 12-27-2007 5:59 PM Taz has not yet responded

Member (Idle past 1196 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007

Message 79 of 438 (459798)
03-09-2008 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Rob
03-09-2008 9:32 PM

Yes, yes.

Such a noise.

Which is why, if one googles "evolution" at amazon.com, one finds 21,822 hits and if one googles "intelligent design", one finds 635 hits. Over half of which are engineering books. Of the remaining 300 or so, half of those are critical of ID. Leaving about 150 books on ID. About a tenth of the number of hits you get with "alien abduction".

Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Rob, posted 03-09-2008 9:32 PM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Rob, posted 03-09-2008 10:03 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

Member (Idle past 1196 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007

Message 109 of 438 (463098)
04-12-2008 1:47 AM

Clips from the movie
There are 7 clips (about 22 minutes total) here:


Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Percy, posted 04-12-2008 8:20 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded

Member (Idle past 1196 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007

Message 145 of 438 (463744)
04-19-2008 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by 1071
04-19-2008 8:29 AM

Re: my opinion
Wouldn't they have the same authority? only Dr.X payed lots of cash ...

Just couldn't let this one slip by.

Lots of cash? You don't know any profs, do you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by 1071, posted 04-19-2008 8:29 AM 1071 has not yet responded

Member (Idle past 1196 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007

Message 146 of 438 (463745)
04-19-2008 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Chiroptera
04-19-2008 12:56 PM

Re: Reply to GDR's OP.
Well, I don't know the context of this scene ...

Dawkins explains if you're interested:


ABE: Yikes. To quick with the ole reply button.

Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Chiroptera, posted 04-19-2008 12:56 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Member (Idle past 1196 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007

Message 160 of 438 (463853)
04-21-2008 12:41 PM

$$$ on opening weekend
Not so good.



It seems they managed only 1.2M Friday and the weekend box office is projected to be 3.4M.

And remember, they've spent millions to make this movie and millions more to market it. According to a commenter on John Lynch's blog who attended a screening and got to hear the Expelled producers answer questions, they considered a successful opening weekend to be 2 million tickets sold; they didn't even come close.

They've gotta have $10 million into this, bare minimum.

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Modulous, posted 04-21-2008 2:23 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded
 Message 162 by platypus, posted 04-22-2008 12:44 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded

Member (Idle past 1196 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007

Message 167 of 438 (464166)
04-23-2008 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by randman
04-23-2008 6:59 PM

It's a statement of fact. Eugenics and so Darwinism played heavily in their reasoning.

Mein Kampf makes no mention of Darwin, nor of the ToE.

There is no mention of Darwin in Mein Kampf. Not one single, solitary mention, not one mention in any of the 27 chapters of this long and tedious book. Don't you think that, if Hitler was truly influenced by Darwin, he would have given him at least one teeny weeny mention in his book?

Hitler justified his behavior as righteous xian thinking.

Hitler used religion to justify his anti-Semitism. For example, here is a typical quotation, from the end of Chapter 2 of Mein Kampf.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Anti-semitism predates the Holocaust by hundreds of years.

Anti-Semitism (had) been rife in Europe for many many centuries, positively encouraged by most Christian churches, including especially the two that (dominated) Germany. The Roman Catholic Church (had) notoriously persecuted Jews as "Christ-killers". As for the Lutherans, Martin Luther himself wrote a book called On the Jews and their Lies from which Hitler quoted.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by randman, posted 04-23-2008 6:59 PM randman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by bluegenes, posted 04-23-2008 7:58 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

Member (Idle past 1196 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007

Message 168 of 438 (464170)
04-23-2008 7:38 PM

Yoko Makes Her Move
Yoko sued today.


I suppose they'll just have to strip the soundtrack out ... but it's in theaters now. Maybe they'll have to pull it from the theaters? *fingers crossed*

Member (Idle past 1196 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007

Message 177 of 438 (464221)
04-24-2008 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by randman
04-23-2008 8:08 PM

Re: wishful thinking.....read Darwin's comments
In the absence of evidence or solid logical arguments, Creationists have long resorted to the strategy of quote-mining, the purposeful misrepresentation of scientists’ opinions by selective or distorted quotation of their words, to buttress their claims. With the Creationists behind the movie Expelled hard at work to demonstrate that “Darwinism” was a necessary pre-condition for the Holocaust and Hitler’s primary inspiration, it was only a matter of time before historians suffered the same fate. Enter David Klinghoffer, the Discovery Institute’s hired hit-pen and journalistic hatchet job expert.

From Look, ma! I can quote-mine historians too!


Klinghoffer writes:

Joachim C. Fest, in Hitler, describes how the Nazi tyrant “extract[ed] the elements of his world view” from various influences including “popular treatments of Darwinism.”

Now, if you have been involved in the Creationism-evolution skirmishes for a while, you get a sixth sense for quote mines, something just doesn’t look right to you: very short quotes, ellipses, words altered or inserted.

Fortunately, I had access to Fest’s excellent Hitler biography, so I looked. On page 201, Fest is describing Hitler’s voracious but unsophisticated reading habits, and then writes:

Fest writes:

Yet he [Hitler] went on extracting the elements of his world view from pseudoscientific secondary works: tracts on race theory, anti-Semitic pamphlets, treatises on the Teutons, on racial mysticism and eugenics, as well as popular treatments of Darwinism and the philosophy of history. JJoachim Fest, Hitler, Harcourt 2002, p. 201

This is what Klinghoffer wants to pass as this historian’s equivalent of “contributed mightily”: on par with “treatises on the Teutons”!

The rest are quote-mines too.

In her classic 1951 work The Origins of Totalitarianism, Hannah Arendt wrote ...

... about "social Darwinism", not Darwinism.

(FYI, rand. The source of social Darwinism was not Darwin but Herbert Spencer and the tradition of Protestant nonconformism going back to Hobbes via Malthus. Spencer's ideas of evolution were Lamarckian. The only real connection between Darwinism and social Darwinism is the name.)

In Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, Alan Bullock ...

... mentions "Darwinism" once. On page 225.

(btw. The book is 489 pages long. You'd think that, were Hitler's policies based on Darwinism, it might merit more than one mention.)

John Toland’s Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography says ...

... mentions Darwin once. On page 23. Once in 1120 pages.

In his biography, Hitler: 1889-1936: Hubris, Ian Kershaw ...

... talks about "social Darwinism", not Darwinism.

Klinghoffer desperately wants to find something in Mein Kampf. After all, it was Hitler's road map.

So Klinghoffer quote-mines Hitler! You gotta love a guy who resorts to quote-mining Hitler.

Here's Klinghoffer's version:

He invokes the “principles of Nature’s rule,” “her whole work of higher breeding,” in which “struggle is always a means for improving a species’ health and power of resistance and, therefore, a cause of its higher development.”

Here are the actual quotes:

Thus men without exception wander about in the garden of Nature; they imagine that they know practically everything and yet with few exceptions pass blindly by one of the most patent principles of Nature's rule: the inner segregation of the species of all living beings on this earth.

No more than Nature desires the mating of weaker with stronger individuals, even less does she desire the blending of a higher with a lower race, since, if she did, her whole work of higher breeding, over perhaps hundreds of thousands of years, might be ruined with one blow.

Therefore, here, too, the struggle among themselves arises less from inner aversion than from hunger and love. In both cases, Nature looks on calmly, with satisfaction, in fact. In the struggle for daily bread all those who are weak and sickly or less determined succumb, while the struggle of the males for the female grants the right or opportunity to propagate only to the healthiest. And struggle is always a means for improving a species' health and power of resistance and, therefore, a cause of its higher development.


From the first section of Vol. 1, Chapter 11: Nation and Race.

Do I even need to point out that the tiny snippets Klinghoffer chose were pulled at random from all over the place?

So. Was Hitler a Darwin fan?

Unfortunately for Klinghoffer, the Nazis were persnickety record keepers.

To answer this question, a bit of digging into the Nazi archives is needed. Die Bücherei, the official Nazi journal, in 1935 produced a list of things not to be taught:

Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (279).


No Darwin, hm?

One of the key roots of Hitler’s extreme anti-Semitism and subsequent programs of action are, instead, to be found in Vienna’s Catholic anti-Semitic publications.

The anti-Semitic side of his theories were easily come by in Vienna.

The Social Catholic journal, Deutsches Volksblatt, edited by Ernst Vergani, offered a constant crop of anti-Semitic stories, mixing the crudest kind of sex and anti-Semitic with popularization of the racial theories of the nineteenth-century French writer, Count Gobineau.

The Catholic paper Das Vaterland under its highly successful editor, Vogelsang, who died in 1890, was peddling the argument that Jewish advances came only because of Christian spinelessness even before Hitler’s birth… Hitler was a self-taught man and his system was his own, concocted piecemeal from the leavings of others, filtered at third- and fourth-hand through the cheap pamphlet and leaflet literature of Viennese politics and elaborated in the endless arguments on the Meldeannstrasse, arguments which nearly brought about his permanent exclusion from the hostel on the complaints of the other inmates.

Moreover, the section of Mein Kampf which sets out Hitler’s ideas on racial issues are couched in historical rather than biological-mystical terms and they represent only a section of his total ideological structure.

His ideas on the primacy of race came much more from Houston Stewart Chamberlain and the German nationalists, such publicists as F. Lange and Klaus Wagner, for example.


Sorry, rand. Sorry, Klinghoffer.

Can't quote-mine your way to a connection between Hitler and Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by randman, posted 04-23-2008 8:08 PM randman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Taz, posted 04-24-2008 8:40 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded
 Message 179 by Modulous, posted 04-25-2008 7:55 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded

Member (Idle past 1196 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007

Message 200 of 438 (465287)
05-04-2008 9:03 PM

Aw yeah.
An injunction has been issued!

Injunction Against Expelled

A federal judge in New York has issued an injunction against any further distribution of Expelled in a lawsuit filed by Yoko Ono over the use of John Lennon's Imagine in the film without permission. The movie can continue to be shown, but no new prints can be sent out and they cannot distribute DVDs of the movie at least until they hold a hearing on a further injunction on May 19.


Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Percy, posted 06-08-2008 8:08 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:

Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020