Great Debate: Romans 1-9 - Larni and Iano

Hope you had a good holiday Iano.To business.The biggest thing I can take out of this is that it seems that a man with the social and intellectual clout of Saul/Paul was used by God (note the capitalization?) through Jesus as a means of giving legitematacy to the neophyte christian religion in the eyes of the Pharisee.This was a good political move. That implied fact that the good news was delivered in a way that anyone could absorb his message was another strong indicator that he was an excellent choice.Can I take it that his re interpretaion of the OT is also concidered to be inspired by God and his selection (by God) was of one that would most effectlivly 'spread the word'?Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

Here I think we can see the forsight in selecting Paul for the role of apostle. So Paul is not trying to convert non-christians but expounding the legitamacy of christainity over judaism?Paul also seems to be strengthening to unity of the already present christian population yet here it states: There is an implied cause to expand through conversion the christian faith. When did this 'change to the mission statemnet' arise?

Sorry Iano, I did not get an alert about your posts Pushed for time at the moment (presures of work etc). I will give a propper response as soon as I can.Hope you enjoyed your holiday!

I completely take your point about being ashamed. It must be very hard to phrase ones convictions in a secular climate.I have one question however about Paul's interpretation of the OT: did he come to a personal judgement as to the intent of the words (different to the Pharisee interpretaion) or was his interpretation prescribed by Yahweh?

This is an assumption that the individual suffers guilt. It is not a universal experience to feel guilt. Interesting. What seems to come through very strongly is the view that ANY time spent in sin can erased by the power of the Gospel. I have seen versions of Christianity (such as Jar's) that imply that if we live a decent life we are saved but if we are wicked we will go to Hell (with an implication that there is a critical level of 'evility').I can see from your words that you do not believe that this is the case. Could we see a tactic use of this concept (by Paul) to at once destablize the iron grip of the Pharisees (of the legal LAW) and offer a 'way out' for people who have committed 'evil' acts (as defined by Pharisee law)? This allows for (at a grass roots level) Christianity to directly target the masses.I have an image of cells of Christianity being set with an in built sense of opposition to the incumbant 'legal' Pharisee dogma.Do you see this growing Christianity as a reaction to Pharisee oppression?

Can we see this being acted out in the story of Jesus dieing on the cross? This makes me think that God looks at humanity rather than the individual. I may be getting the wrong end of the stick here but I see oppression popping up several times thematically in our discourse.Could you explain how the premise that 'the gospel tells man that he is a rotten before God' is not thematically oppressive?

Did he not say "...Father way have you forsaken me?" What I mean is that all of humanity is fallen (as a result of our progenitor Adam's crime). In past discourse with you I had the sense that living outside of God's love forced upon us (the non saved) certain eventuallities that are fundemental functions of reality/creation.That is to say God does not send us to Hell, but if we chose not to take the (logical) steps (i.e. to accept that you cannot take the right steps alone), to Hell we will go, whether or not we live like a saint creation has certain boundaries that only Gods love can over come.Taking this as given I meant that the Gospel (as an 'agent' of God) seeks to redress this not just for the individual, but humanity as whole. That's not quite what I meant; I found the Law of the Pharissees to be the cause of oppression. The gospel seems to be the way forwards from a climate of oppression. I hope that clarifies my point. Continue, please. This is very interesting.

I take this to mean that the words of the gospel are simply the format used to transmit the phenomena of the gospel. It does not seem far fetched to me but if I told you why it may derail this exercise. I take this to mean that the nature of God defines the nature of the universe, God is the Universe? This is how I see it (from the Christian point of view I hope): If we play a game of rugby and we insist on knocking the ball on (inspite of the rules) we will get sent off and will not enjoy the game. If we do this over and over we will get cut from the team.Now, we could claim that we did not know the rules and this may be true; but we still get sent off becausde that is nature of rugby. The ref embodies the rules and enforces them but does not change them because then we would not be playing rugby. The rules come from the nature of the game (and here I equate the nature of the game to the nature of creation).If we read the rule book we can know how to play well and contribute to the mighty game (or Creation). While the words in the rule book may seem like words, they are infact what lets us interact with the game (Creation).Have to go now but feel free to comment on this (and if I've totally missed your point about the gospel please put me out of my misery, .

Flabbergasted in a good way?or in a bad way?

Can you hang on 'till next week Iano? Time is tight and I can't go through this in the way I would like 'till then.

This is where I get confused. This gives the implication that God choses who will be saved. It follows (unless I have it wrong) that this means God will not choose everyone. But here it is implied that God offers salvation to everyone and it is our actions that prevent salvation.Could we clear up my confusion before continue?

Finaly I can get my head around what you mean by this. God knows the choice that you will make but it is still a real choice. We often hear in Cosmolgy and QM that 'common sense' answers do not fit reality and I think that this is what is happening here.God knows the choice that you will make. This is different from 'God knows what you will do'. The word choice means a choice is being made.I'm not explaining my self well but suffice it to say I get it.Thanks It does raise a question in me: Does God know that someone will regect his call if the call is never made?That is to say that I am quite happy with God knowing the out come of the call (all moments are as one to Him), but can He predict what would have occured had he made the call if he did not infact do so?To put it another way, could God model the out come of calling an individual, without having to do it in reality?

This is off topic but I always like it when people say this: in fact you are dead wrong here. Neurological research shows quite clearly that the cognitions associated with the action (sparking one up) happen several milli seconds after the neural signal to your limbs and hands.Your psychological narative is always playing catch up.Interesting, but off topic: I will try not to interupt again.ABE: I am a cognitive behavioural therepist (no PhD )Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

The act of acknowledging oneself as a sinner mirrors quite nicely my own experience as a teenager. I found the world to be an increasingly grim place where people were selfish and less than perfect.I looked within my self and found that I was just how I percieved everyone else to. I came to a conclusion that people are flawed (as you mention) and that really all you can do is adapt to this fact (i.e. that's how people and the world is - quite rough) and face life on those terms.I feel something of the 'Grace' that you mention because my knowledge (of people as rough diamonds) shows that one will act in a very flawed way without feeling disturbed beacause that is the way that (flawed) people behave.This seems to be attributed to the Adamist transgression and the need to accept the consequences of this.This arguement applies more to thoughts than deeds I would hazard, but I think this fits nicely with spiritual deeds (aligned with psychological deeds).I do seem to be putting your words into the template of my life so errors may arise, but I think we are ready to progress.Can't help thinking I'm begining to sound like Brad .

Hi Iano, I'm going on holiday for 2 weeks, Yay!I will get back to you on this some time after the 22nd Sept.Take it easy dude.Larni.